Demo

[StealthDP]

Anyone had a chance to mess with the demo yet?

[Hort]

Generally hearing very good things about the demo and full game. Gotta run out and buy it soon. Immersive. Fresh.

Ultra's been playing it (http://forums.unrealplayground.com/showthread.php?t=47117)

[King Mango]

Man hope it works for me!
Good ole Vista decided to hibernate in the middle of the demo dl last night forcing it to time out. Forgot to change the power settings this install lol... grrrr
I just got my XP Pro x64 disc in the mail today. WEWT poor little 32 bit home didn't want to let me use all my RAM.

I'm on it now from gamershell @ 180KB/sec though so in another couple of hours I'll have it.
Beware the torrent. Several versions are reporting trojans. Go figure ><

[Phanataz]

Played the demo. It seemed very original to me. I'll be buying it.

[Phanataz]

or maybe not. gg DRM.

http://www.twitchguru.com/site/flash_videos/second_take_the_bioshock_drm_problem.html

[Hort]

I thought Valis' post at UP about this was worth reposting:

Firstly, seems to me that this is NOT a Sony game. It's made 2K studios and Take2 distributed, I don't see any connection to Sony anywhere in the corporate structure but if someone knows better feel free to share.

Also, SecureROM is not a rootkit and it comes with a lot of modern games. The guy who spawned that original article was using the 'rootkit' word to get SEO hits (ie, it made it the top link on Google and he makes money on google adwords).

Why companies use it though is beyond me because every game that uses it is still available via torrents with SecureROM support removed. There are also various ways to get around SecureROM easily found on google, although I won't fess up to knowing how well they work... And if you own the game why bother with activations once GameCopyWorld has an exe up.

I'm still interested in checking the game out but I would be interested in how to bypass SecureROM protection once it's out as I use Alchohol to access disk images of SampleCD's constantly when doing music and dealing with graphics jobs that require stock photos or video footage, and don't really want to have to fiddle around with my mapped drives just to do some gaming. Having my largish library of stock footage and sample cd's on a large HD rather than feeling the need for a 100CD/DVD carousel attached to my PC has been a great boon to productivity. Of course this is the downside to DRM, assuming that certain things that facilitate illegal activities have no legal uses.

Anyway as for SecureROM, rather than people taking the Bioshock makers to task alone, it might make more sense to use it as a chance to make an issue out of DRM use in games in general. The mp3 market made enough inroads on this that several labels are now distributing non-DRM laden mp3's that even have a decent level of quality in their encoded bitrates. While this case is somewhat different as it's not a difference between DRM & non-DRM laden formats (mp3 versus iTunes AAC or Wma etc) I think if enough people let Take2/2K know they weren't going to buy the game until later when the SecureROM protection was disabled, they might think about using it in future releases if they truly are looking to protect (and drive) initial returns from a game that requires a large investment of time to develop and market.

If all people do is knee-jerk repeat "OMGLoLz Sony haxx0rz pc's again with Bioshock rootkit!!!" I doubt they'll pay much notice in the long run as it shows that you were ignorant as to the actual issue and just repeating hearsay.

[Hort]

And really- big effin deal IMO. How many people REALLY install this on multiple rigs other than people who steal it?

And it will be fixed, right?

[Freakish]

I hadn't read about this until after I experienced its annoyance firsthand with the demo (via Steam). I was starting/restarting the game quite a bit as I tried to get it working with the right graphics driver and audio settings. On multiple occasions, I was forced to restart my computer before I could restart the game because SecuRom won't let you start the game once you've run Process Explorer (which I ran because the steam-created deskop shortcut is buggy--it starts steam but not the game). They're afraid you'll use Process Explorer to analyze the way SecuROM works (http://forum.sysinternals.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11000).

Also, before my first play I wondered why it installed some visual c++ package. And this is where my objection to protection like this comes from--there is no need for a game to install additional services and software and system drivers on my machine. I could care less if it phones home to activate WHEN I RUN IT, but I don't want it interfering with my computer operation when I'm not even playing it.

Keep in mind, I'm speaking entirely of the demo here. It must have just been easier to leave it in than remove it, because what about the demo needs to be protected?

[Phanataz]

And really- big effin deal IMO. How many people REALLY install this on multiple rigs other than people who steal it?

And it will be fixed, right?


Kind of a big deal if:

A) you cant even launch it with all of the securerom crap causing problems

B) if you dont want DRM rootkits installed on your computer

C) It wont play/install due to anti virus software you have installed on your computer (thats a red flag if i've ever seen one)

D) the fact that you paid $50 for a game and you're forced to register it before you can even think about playing it.

Although its a less likely scenario, but what if you don't have internet access on the computer you're installing it on? Its a single player game..most people wouldn't think you'd have to be on the internet to play it.


It's a shame too, because the graphics are really beautiful and the demo was a lot of fun. But I wont be dishing out money for something thats going to install extra crap on my computer that I dont want. I'll just buy some other game instead.

[Creeper]

The comparison to Sony was due to 1) Sony owns SecureRom. and 2) Some Sony music CDs also installed rootkits. But that's ok, cause they later (after being sued) issued a removal tool:

"Rootkit removal program

Sony BMG released a software utility to remove the rootkit component of XCP from affected Microsoft Windows computers, but this removal utility was soon analyzed by Russinovich again in his November 5, 2005, blog and revealed as only exacerbating the privacy and security concerns.[12]

In fact, the Sony BMG removal program merely unmasked the hidden files installed by the rootkit, but did not actually remove the rootkit. In addition, this program was reported to install additional software that cannot be uninstalled. In order to download the uninstaller, it is necessary to provide an e-mail address (which the Sony BMG Privacy Policy implies to be added to various bulk e-mail lists), and to install an ActiveX control containing backdoor methods (marked as "safe for scripting", and thus prone to exploits).[13]"

Uhhh.. .yup, sounds like no big deal to me. I mean, they learned from their mistakes right?

"Sony BMG was quoted as maintaining that "there were no security risks associated with the anti-piracy technology", despite numerous virus and malware reports. On November 16, 2005, US-CERT, part of the United States Department of Homeland Security, issued an advisory on XCP DRM. They said that XCP uses rootkit technology to hide certain files from the computer user, and that this technique is a security threat to computer users. They also said one of the uninstallation options provided by Sony BMG introduces further vulnerabilities to a system."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal)
(and ya I just quoted wikipedia.)

These issues were known long before 2K decided to use Sony for their DRM. And they decided to anyway. That to me, displays remarkably poor judgment, and surprise surprise, it's already coming back to haunt them, an entire what.. 3 days after release? LOL.

I will not buy this game because the publishers don't give a crap about my computer system's integrity. Installing un-removable software, WITHOUT the user's knowledge, is not ok with me. However, the game sure is pretty so I'll probably play it anyway, if only out of spite.

[Hort]

:ban: I guess I didn't understand this fully. Hmmm.

Well- here's hoping for the COD4 beta

[Freakish]

MS' Rootkit Revealer didn't find anything untoward on my machine, so I guess the demo doesn't install the rootkit. Hopefully there will be a clean* version available by the time I build my new comp.

edit: Several comments (http://www.gamingbob.com/2007/08/23/bioshock-installs-rootkit-including-demo) from those that used steam to demo indicate it's free of the rootkit, at least.

*(clean and) legit. I'm sure there are already clean versions floating around the tubes.

[Hort]

MS' Rootkit Revealer didn't find anything untoward on my machine, so I guess the demo doesn't install the rootkit. Hopefully there will be a clean* version available by the time I build my new comp.

edit: Several comments (http://www.gamingbob.com/2007/08/23/bioshock-installs-rootkit-including-demo) from those that used steam to demo indicate it's free of the rootkit, at least.

*(clean and) legit. I'm sure there are already clean versions floating around the tubes.


Hmm- I've seen comments saying the opposite: that it did come in via Steam and the demo. But then, perhaps thos folks already had it in their systems and didn't notice.

[MadMikey]

Because SecureROM is involved, everyone is screaming rootkits.....but how does broken Digital Rights Managment equate to a rootkit?

The company is just trying to protect its intellectual property. In today's world, you have to. I get that. The millions spent developing a game has to be considered an investment. If you can't get it back and then some, why bother?

I'm not a big fan of DRM, myself. But the mere existence of DRM doesn't prevent me from buying music or games....Not wanting to spend $20 for a CD or $50 for a game prevents me from buying music and games.

:D

[Hort]

This is a (very) long but (somewhat) interesting thread about this. FYI (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8168)

[Creeper]

"Is too!"

"Is not!"

"Is too!"

"Is not!"

^^ Thread summary. Although it was an entertaining read for that very reason.

[MadMikey]

Entertaining to say the least.

[King Mango]

The thing is, average Joes like me don't know fully what a rootkit is. We just know it's bad. I haven't seen anything to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it is a rootkit yet so I'm still undecided.

One thing I'm sure of is the limited number of installs is a low blow on the developer's part. Especially as I am still trying to figure out how I want my new system laid out. I've just used one install. I haven't reinstalled the game yet because I'm still not sure if this will be the final configuration.

I stick by the idea that people who are going to pirate will pirate. They will not have bought the game in the first place. In the meantime the average consumer gets stuck with what are becoming increasingly unreasonable anti-piracy solutions.

[Creeper]

I stick by the idea that people who are going to pirate will pirate. They will not have bought the game in the first place. In the meantime the average consumer gets stuck with what are becoming increasingly unreasonable anti-piracy solutions.


And then there's A-holes like me who WOULD have bought, had the DRM not pissed me off prior to purchase.



:lame:

[SoBeiT]

Its like buying a vacation package with all the perks & finding out a hotel employee will be in your room at all times to keep you from abusing the room.


There has to be another way to have a game & proctect it also.