The wonderful debate....spawn camping.

[|Robot|Bender]

This poll has to do with the wonderful debate always going on with "Spawn Camping" or attacking the main base.....

[ElectricHead]

You should only fire on the main, non-takeable(is that a word :confused: ) when you have all the flags.

The exception is using the Artillery. If you can lob the shells or rockets with or without a spotter into ANY of the bases, then go for it. That is what the artillery is for. This does not include the AC130, as it is a support weapon with very good armor.

This mean that planes, helos, tanks, IFVs (Brads, BMPs, BRDMs, Hummers), and soldiers should not fire on the main spawn base until all flags are taken.



EH

[Inkswitch]

Yup. If all flags are held. Are you just supposed to wait for them to take a flag back? This isn't UT or Quake. Spawn camping doesn't really apply.

It sucks if you are on a crappy team. You just gotta figure out some way to get behind them and take a flag.

[SFT]

Good poll (for a Bender). lol

I agree with EH.

Now check this out. Saturday night we're playing "Battle of the Bulge" where only the Red team has an untakable base. Blue takes all flags and then starts pinning down Red at their base. Red starts crying and crying about spawn killing and peeps on Blue start leaving. Needless to say in 5 minutes Red took the last Blue base and Game Over. Of course, I didn't hear any complaining while they were taking that last Blue base with Blue down 4/5 players. Oh, I also add, some guy named Hollywood Rose (evil Red Team) was doorway spamming the windmill with a heli the whole game.

OK, I got that out. I believe it's the Berlin map - Superman jump, parachute into building next to Blue spawn point, stick gun through wall, kill kill kill. That is a kickable offence in my books.

[|Robot|Bender]

Someone make me an admin.
I wanna kick someone!!!

:)

:naughty:

[The_Stranger]

I'd say it kinda depends on what you mean--there's a difference between being a not-so-great sport and committing a kickable or bannable offence. SFT's example is a good one of just plain crappy behavior that should be punished.

On the other hand, totally shutting down the other side's non-takeable base (even after all other flags have been taken), by blowing away all of their vehicles and team-members before they can blink, is kind of obnoxious behavior, but it's not really cheating. It's really more of a flaw in the game, IMO, and happens a lot more on certain smaller maps (like Kharkov and Kursk), than on others. An out-of bounds area for non-takeable bases might work better for some maps. So it's kind of a judgement call, depending on the map and the situation. Sometimes it's a sign of the teams being badly out of balance.

A few maps are built around spawn-camping type behavior. One time when I was playing Coral Sea some players on one side started whining about spawn-camping--I mean wtf are you supposed to do if you don't bomb the enemy carrier? Also, Berlin is kind of a setup for the Allies/Coalition to break out of a spawn-camping situation.

Maybe Bf1942 needs a spawn protection mod?

[Budly]

I guess attacking the base is not as bad as I'm thinking, but what I hate is spawn killing. Attacking a base with the intent of overrunning is just fine, but staying out of occupation range and just killing people as they spawn should be a bannable offense. Especially when it contributes absolutely nothing to the team.

[SoBeiT]

How about the maps that start one team with all the flags taken, so they spawncamp/kill at the other base from the start of the game?
The players said they have all the flags so STFU.

[|Robot|Bender]

What is GA's server policy on this issue?

[Budly]

Interesting, just got off of warmfuzzy and they seem to have turned off the admin nazi. Of course that meant a server full of idiots...

No pleasing some I guess.

[SoBeiT]

Policy seems to be this (you'll have to get confirmation from Stealth or MM):
If one side has taken all the Flags they do have the right to obliterate the other side.

But they darn well better have ALL the flags. As they lose the flags they have to stop the spawnkilling.


Now many of us feel it's bad sportspersonship to do that, so maybe we are chumps for not going for the throat...who knows?

It hasn't cost me any games yet, just keeps them interesting.

[Play]

Personally, I feel sitting there with a Helo raining down rockets and missiles at a spawn point, especially if it's the only one left, is just plain ghey. The fact that these rockets and missiles actually go through walls is what makes it worse. :ink:

[SFT]

Stranger makes a good point about certain maps (Kurst, Kharkov). If your team fumbles for 15 seconds it might cost you the game. I've been on both sides of this argument. As a matter of fact, I've switched to the team getting spawncamped many times in an effort to try and balance things. Simple-- if you drop the ball somebody is gonna pick it up -- don't cry and whine.

Of course, a carefully placed TK'er can decimate (pentamate, binamate?) a team in no time on those two maps discussed. I keep to my original view, if your on a map like Battle of the Bulge, you may not want to let the enemy out of the cage.

[The_Stranger]

It's hard to make up any hard and fast rule that apply to all situations. Some are clear cut and easy to figure out the right and wrong of it. Most situations are a little messier. The automatic solutions tend to be as annoying as the problems they solve--like automatic team balancing or automatically killing anyone who TKs, which can easily happen by accident.

Some minor modifications to the game, like elimination of tank healing in hangars, have helped out and there are probably a few others that would work, as well.

Only solution, really, is good admins. :bash:

SFT's mention of Bulge reminds me of a game on that map a few nights ago in which the Opposition was getting massively spawnkilled for awhile (slow start, unbalanced teams at first). After a few people switched to the Opposition, the situation totally reversed, and the game ended very suddenly when the Opposition captured all the Coalition bases in a relatively short period of time.

[Paladin]

One time when I was playing Coral Sea some players on one side started whining about spawn-camping--I mean wtf are you supposed to do if you don't bomb the enemy carrier? Also, Berlin is kind of a setup for the Allies/Coalition to break out of a spawn-camping situation.


On Coral Sea, the problem isn't people who attack the spawn with planes. As you said, what the hell else are they supposed to do? A good team would spawn as many engineers as possible and get people on AA. A really smart team would know that the first 2-4 planes off the carrier need to hang around for air defense instead of rushing off to attack. The problem is the players who bail out onto you carrier and grenade spam the spawn points. It was worse when they had the problem that allowed parachutists to get into an invulnerable spot on the carrier island, but I think it's a really crappy way to play.

Berlin is absolutely my least favorite map. The allied base is just in too much of a choke point. It doesn't help that the initial spawns get spread out...by which I mean when you first spawn is dependent at least in part by how quickly the map loads for you. If a couple of opposition spawn ahead of the allies, or even if they start with just a small numeric advantage, it becomes almost impossible to break out. I really wish the spawn point was laid out so the tanks spawned at the back of the allied base, so opposition cannot just run from their forward spawn and take them before allies spawn. Also, with DC, the mortar really unbalances things.

I agree with SFT about the superman cheat on Berlin. In my opinion, anything which allows you or your vehicle to move in a way not consistent with how the vehicles are used in real life. The bunker map we played Sunday night was a perfect example. Opposition had a great defense going, and all of the sudden, we had allied getting into the base by launching themselves over the fence. The maps are, or should be, balanced. Since we as players don't have any way to prevent these "cheats" (and I do consider them cheats), the only option is to make it a rule and enforce it with kick/bans.

One last thing with the rule of camping the uncappable base. Once the defending team captures another base back, what then? Do the attackers have to turn tail and all get out immediately (and not attack further while doing so), or is it up to the defenders to not only hold the base they just recaptured but to clean out their main base too? Personnally, I try not to spawn camp without having all the other bases captured, and if we no longer hold all the bases, I get out. I do, however, sometimes run into an enemy base and shoot stuff up, but then I get out...if we don't have all have all the flags, I don't drive in and stay, I'm out in 30 seconds or less. I also define spawn camping as being physically in the base or in a position that allows you to pile explosive fire on the actual spawn point. A lone sniper shooting into a main base doesn't count as a camper. Neither does someone who strafes the base repeatedly by plane (hovering a helo overhead and piling rockets into a base DOES count in my book, as the rate of fire is so rediculously overpowering).

Anyway, that's my rambling 3 cents worth.

[Budly]

I saw one yesterday where on Khafji docks an opposition guy grabbed the brdm and new exactly where to position it to do nothing but hammer the lone coalition spawn(the boat launch). He totalled 60 kills and couldn't see but a handful of them. He just knew where to park and where to point the gun without seeing a target. The allies repeatedly asked him to stop to give them a fighting chance at having a challenging game and the only chance they had to move was when he finally had to reload. This is the stupid kind of play that I refer to. On the same map, whilst there team is behind and controlling fewer spawn points, a member of their team sits back with the same brdm on the main road and spams an outside spawn point racking up his point score but not helping his team in any way. The behavior reminds me a lot about what I hated in tribes. How the game allowed the actions of a few to ruin an otherwise awesome game.

[Paladin]

I saw one yesterday where on Khafji docks an opposition guy grabbed the brdm and new exactly where to position it to do nothing but hammer the lone coalition spawn(the boat launch). He totalled 60 kills and couldn't see but a handful of them. He just knew where to park and where to point the gun without seeing a target. The allies repeatedly asked him to stop to give them a fighting chance at having a challenging game and the only chance they had to move was when he finally had to reload. This is the stupid kind of play that I refer to. On the same map, whilst there team is behind and controlling fewer spawn points, a member of their team sits back with the same brdm on the main road and spams an outside spawn point racking up his point score but not helping his team in any way. The behavior reminds me a lot about what I hated in tribes. How the game allowed the actions of a few to ruin an otherwise awesome game.

I just got a taste of that BRDM tactic too. I agree, it sucks. And the whole other team basically said it was our fault for not using teamwork to get off the island. I'm not sure how much teamwork can help when a) no one can see the BRDM and b) the boats are being sunk within about 3 seconds of spawning. If we do manage to actually launch one, it's empty except for the driver and it too is sunk in moments. I liked this map until this tactic showed up, when the opposition tried hard to defend the ship. Now they don't even need to bother. I hope they either take the BRDM off this map in the next patch or add another spawn point or blackhawk for the allies.

[Salyavin]

Unless you're playing deathmatch, the point of the game is not to kill people on the other team. It's to take and hold flags (or destroy bunkers). If a flag is untakeable, it's not a valid objective. The tickets don't count down any faster if you camp it, nor do you win the game by shooting anyone that spawns there. In fact, the only reason there are untakeable flags on the map is so that players have a place to spawn and get back in the game even if they're losing.

And it is a game, not a war simulation. If you think "it's war" or "it's realistic" is a good reason for pressing the attack on the enemy: it's not. It's not realistic for enemy soldiers and vehicles to appear out of thin air at predetermined locations and predetermined times. No real military commander orders an Apache, or snipers, or an MRLS to sit and fire continuously on a couple of buildings for hours on end in the hopes that more soldiers will show up there to be killed. Any reinforcements are going to circle around and attack his flank; it's one of the most basic military moves. But it's one that you can't do in BF1942/DC because the spawn points are preset on the map.

Likewise, the "no base camping unless all the flags are held" rule is pure sophistry. Of course you can base camp if you hold all the flags: the other team has nowhere else to spawn. You know exactly where they're going to reappear out of thin air in 20 seconds or less. They're easy kills. And wow, if you keep on killing them you get lots of personal points so you can show just how much better you are than them. Yeesh.

But look at it from the other side. If you're on the team getting base camped, you have very little chance to get back in the game. I don't find it especially fun to be killed as soon as I spawn and then have to twiddle my thumbs for 20 seconds. Repeat ad naseum and it really sucks.

Which leads to the point of my argument against spawn camping: we're real people playing a game here. Playing is fun, downtime isn't.

My 2 cents.

Cheers,
Salyavin

[Play]

Unless you're playing deathmatch, the point of the game is not to kill people on the other team. It's to take and hold flags (or destroy bunkers). If a flag is untakeable, it's not a valid objective. The tickets don't count down any faster if you camp it, nor do you win the game by shooting anyone that spawns there. In fact, the only reason there are untakeable flags on the map is so that players have a place to spawn and get back in the game even if they're losing.

And it is a game, not a war simulation. If you think "it's war" or "it's realistic" is a good reason for pressing the attack on the enemy: it's not. It's not realistic for enemy soldiers and vehicles to appear out of thin air at predetermined locations and predetermined times. No real military commander orders an Apache, or snipers, or an MRLS to sit and fire continuously on a couple of buildings for hours on end in the hopes that more soldiers will show up there to be killed. Any reinforcements are going to circle around and attack his flank; it's one of the most basic military moves. But it's one that you can't do in BF1942/DC because the spawn points are preset on the map.

Likewise, the "no base camping unless all the flags are held" rule is pure sophistry. Of course you can base camp if you hold all the flags: the other team has nowhere else to spawn. You know exactly where they're going to reappear out of thin air in 20 seconds or less. They're easy kills. And wow, if you keep on killing them you get lots of personal points so you can show just how much better you are than them. Yeesh.

But look at it from the other side. If you're on the team getting base camped, you have very little chance to get back in the game. I don't find it especially fun to be killed as soon as I spawn and then have to twiddle my thumbs for 20 seconds. Repeat ad naseum and it really sucks.

Which leads to the point of my argument against spawn camping: we're real people playing a game here. Playing is fun, downtime isn't.

My 2 cents.

Cheers,
Salyavin

Amen brother. Preach on!! :)

[MadMikey]

What is GA's server policy on this issue?Not GA policy, just my opinion. If all the flags are taken, it should be ok to attack their main base.

It's no fun being stuck inside your own base, believe me, I've been on both sides. But what are you supposed to do? LET them take a flag?!? I don't think so.

[SoBeiT]

We were playing 2 on 2 last night, they had all the flags when I joined. So tickets are run half way thru, it's turning boring and the other team gave us a 3 sec chance to get out and run from our base.
(yes I wrote "this is boring" on screen :D)

We got a flag, they were surprised and the game was at least interesting from that point on. We did lose, but hey we were going to lose anyway <shrugs> and even they said it was a better game, with the back & forth of flag taking.

So yeah, I do think slamming their base with everything you got is just lame, but a game is usually what you make it. Usually :D

Thanks SkinnyDaddy!

[Salyavin]

But what are you supposed to do? LET them take a flag?!? I don't think so.Of course not. You don't need to let them take a flag, and you shouldn't... that's what defense is for. Protect the takeable flag(s) by covering incoming routes with snipers, exp packs or mines ;), artillery, etc. When the other team starts attacking a flag, call in air support.

Granted, victory isn't as sure a thing as when an Apache or MRLS just pounds the one untakeable flag for 30 minutes. There's a chance that the losing team will find a way to penetrate the defense and take back a flag. But IMHO it's a lot more fun to play the game than just to win it. And playing and winning with a Minor Victory with a lot of back and forth is more fun than sitting around for 30 minutes with no-one to shoot at and then seeing the Major Victory screen for a couple seconds. The Apache or MRLS guy at the top of the list with 60+ kills may get some satisfaction, but that's never me. :)

It's like UT... what games do you remember best, the 6-0 blowouts or the 6-5 nailbiters that go into extra time?

Cheers,
Salyavin

[SFT]

Unless you're playing deathmatch, the point of the game is not to kill people on the other team. It's to take and hold flags (or destroy bunkers).

Like I said before (and you were in that game) if you have all the flags the next step is to pin down the enemy. This is very important on a map like Battle of the Bulge because if Blue screws up there's no chance of recovery (I don't remember any mercy on your part when Red had the upper hand).

[Paladin]

Yes, but mostly it's the ones who are looking to add to their individual score who camp the base with helos and missiles. Granted, everyone may run up with tanks and heavy machine guns, but it's the ones in the helos who are doing it for themselves...teamwork doesn't matter. They want to see 60 kills (or more) next to their name.

Now, maybe Mikey and SFT do stuff the uncappable with the goal of keeping the enemy pinned, rather than just racking up kills. If so, they are in the minority.

When I was playing ordinary Battlefield, I played on a server that did ban attacking the uncappable bases, and I think it was a good rule. With the shear firepower a helo or two (like Kursk) can bring to bear, I think it's an even better rule for DC. I wish there was a mod that caused an enemy's uncappable base to act like out-of-bounds, where you get so many seconds to get out or you take damage. That would allow camping from a distance (and I think it should be a much larger radius for aircraft than for ground vehicles) but limit actually staying in/over a base permanently. Another option would be a mod that gives 5-10 seconds invulnerability to people spawning in an uncappable base. That would give the defenders a chance to defend themselves, but not give them much advantage in staging a break-out. The invulnerability would extend only to the people, not the vehicles, so you couldn't just jump into an aircraft and get out without worrying about damage.

One thing I don't get, on Kursk, why does it always end up with the opposition spawn camping the allies? I've seen the allies spawn camp on that map, but it never holds. Why is it so much easier for the opposition when the helos are supposedly identically equiped with the new patch?

[Zinia]

Last night I almost uninstalled 1942 for all of the spawn camping. Probably one of my most unenjoyable gaming experiences.

[ElectricHead]

If people dont like helos then they should shoot them down.

There are many times when all I will do is try and control the air either with a fighter or with the ground AA.

Most people dont want to play pure AA because it can be alot of waiting and you dont always get a high score.

I dont like helos that buzz around the base either, so I shoot them down. Designate someone for AA or just do it yourself.

[SoBeiT]

Yeah using AA can tip the balance in DC, especially when they are spawn killing in our base.

We had some slow to boring games last night early on.
Needed to get the player count up and kick more than a few players to make it interesting.

We played till 10 pm. Lost all but one game..ouch!

Thx for being there Stealth & Sal :)

[|Robot|Bender]

Hey, lemme give you a hint on how to coutner the BDRM camping attack on Docks...

Get your team to all spawn as anti tank not a bunch of freaking assult class...

Then, rocket that sucker out of there. If 2+ guys cover while otheres make a break for it..then you should have no problem.

THat strat works every time, the team just needs to be lead as a team, not as individuals.

Also, i countered it once by swimming to the edge of the map and around.....then i grabbed the flag on the beach, my team spawned and we went to work.

The biggest problem is that people don't play the game as a team, but individuals. There are problems in the game that can only be over come as a team (like charging up the road on the Omaha Beach map).

Its not a DM game, but its also not a solo game..

Work better as a team and you will win....

[Play]

Yes, Bender & SFT, you're both right. It is a team strategy game and AA can help defeat Helo's, but none of that really matters when you die as soon as you respawn. The damn helo rockets and missiles go through walls so you can't even hide in the building even if you wanted to. Respawn, die, wait 20 seconds, respawn, die, wait 20 seconds,...etc etc etc. Add the scud missile into the mix, and there's no point even playing. This is especially true on Kursk (no scud btw, but still anoying with Helo's camping). :ink:

[Zinia]

That and the 2 other guys were on my team and would not leave the spawn room (where there is a bed and I will not ask why they stayed there) which left myself (and Dank after he switched) to try and get out. Of course the 2 flags are within earshot of 1 another so they could cover them quite easily.

And Sobe popping out of nowhere and scaring the hell out of me was another jolt.

[SoBeiT]

Get into the game enough and it does feel like the enemy shot you, makes your heart jump in your chest.