ZG Post Op

[patrickgurdgiel]

So I figured I'd recap my thoughts on how last night went and get some discussion going.

The Good:

* Pulling the group together - once 8:15/8:30 hit and I pulled together a few people (including Mensrea) I couldn't keep up with the invite requests. We actuall had to turn some people down. Thank you all for coming together on time, ready to play.

* Following the plan - Meyhem and Bezzelbubba had both been through before and took the lead - which probably got us a lot closer to killing her than we could have hoped for our first shot - everyone took direction fairly well and we didn't have anyone going off doing something crazy (to be expected with this crew I guess, but nice nonetheless)

* Everything overall - without droning on, everything went well overall with that crew.

The Bad

* while the planning helped a ton, we probably overtalked it prior to the first attack

* Healing the main tank - not sure if it was mis-comunication, needing another healer, or something else about the boss, but we went through 1 tank per 1/4 of the bosses life. Not sure there is an easy solution here, but we need to find a way to keep the MT up longer.

* Needed more consistent DPS - we got better with this as each battle passed, but we still probably could have co-ordinated the damage better. (Question to any of the rogues who see this - did the DPS totem suite I dropped substantially up your DPS or not?)

* We have to reliably stop the mega-heal - This is truely the only reason we didn't beat her in my opinion. I have some thoughts on on how to do this, but bottom line is that we probably need to co-ordinate our Kicks, Shield Bashes, Shocks, etc... so that we don't all spam it at the same time and have no one ready to go.

Suggestions
* This is personal opinion, but if the mobs don't reset for 6 hrs if you stay in the instance - I think I'd rather clear all of the trash mobs everywhere before starting the first boss. That way we get a lot more coins, skins, reputation, etc... before we start wiping. I know we all want to focus on the "bright shinny" (i.e. boss) but hitting all the small mobs first will let us accomplish more - even if that means cutting down the number of attempts we make on the boss

* We need a warlock - hate to say we "need" one class, but if we had had curse of tongues on the boss, I doubt she would have ever gotten off a mega-heal.

* Keep a backup priest for dispel - not sure if this would work, but if dispel works against the silence there may be some real value in keeping one back to un-silence the other healers. During the second half I think we definitely need one just to stop the Shadow Words quickly.

* Use wands more - I may have missed this and it happened, but after the MT got aggro lock, couldn't the mages/priests started wand DPS? We may have to figure out what she is least resistant to first, but they cost no mana and can do some decent steady damage. I'm thinking the shaman (myself included) probably should have kept a consistent layer of Scorching or Magma totems on her the whole time also.

* Co-ordinate the disrupts better - at least for the shaman, we probably should have dropped back and just focused on stopping the heal in the second half. Possibly even splitting into two groups of 2 alternating on who hits her. The earth shocks seemed to work, but with a 5-6 second cooldown, I think we all hit her at the same time a few times - and then no one was ready for the next heal.

* Immediately release when dead - not gonna matter a lot, but since it's not a far run to the first boss we can get ready for the next try with less down time if you immediately start running back. For a few people who died early, they may have even gotten back before the fight was over (though who knows if they could realistically add anything to the fight at that point).

Overall though, great job guys! We had her super-close considering that was the first try for most of us.

FYI... I probably will not be able to hit ZG tonight, but will be up for this weekend.

Pat aka Blunthorn

[]RK[Mensrea]

Mayhem has put together a post on our forums detailing the various attacks and some basic strategies for the bat boss. http://www.red-knights.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1162 about the 6th post down.

One of the biggest things that was news to me was the chain mana burn while she is in troll form. After she morphed, my thought was to get in and melee her; that seems like it would be a mistake. Since our range is 20 yards for most spells, its an issue for us to even Earthshock her or lay down totems. Not sure how to solve this one.

Some better co-ordination of healing runs is necessary. We may need to set up some sort of rotation on the main tank. The risk is that the non-MTs who engage her in melee for the first phase will ahve to accept the distinct possibility they may go down. Some sort or rotation would aslo prevent simultaneous mana shortages among the healers. FOr the MTs, do you thik 1 priest and 1 shaman kept up enough healing? If so, we could have the other priests reserve mana while the shamans covered the off tank heals. Have the first priest be VERY liberal with mana, then step back and recharge while #2 priest takes over. By the time #3 priest is up, #1 should be in good shape.

We need to have a line of succession for MTs. When it went from #1 to #2, no problem (Nylock down, switch to Dim). When #2 went down, it was mass confusion as to who was tanking. When we get in that situation, it will probably be a good idea for the raid commander to announce- "Nylock is down, Dim is new MT; Cease DPS, Khan prepare to assume #2 slot" That way we healers know who to look for next and the DPS folks can pause.

Finally, we need to be more prepared in terms of potions. We were short of mana pots going in. I have the ability to make those as well as dreamless sleep potions. Since dreamless is now on a 12 second timer, it is a great way to restore 1200 mana/health while you are out of rotation on the heals.

I totally like the idea of clearing more trash mobs. We went thru those like soft butter, and the drops were consistent. there is no reason not to spend the first hour in instance clearing out every one we see.

[Nylock]

[NOTE - Mens posted while i was composing this]

Nice write-up Blunt,

Generally speaking, I agree that the primary reason we did not suceed (once we got our strategy going) was that we did not interrupt the big heal. I believe that if we had consistently disrupted the big heal, we would have won at least one of the fights.

My suggestions......

1. All warriors should "sword and board" (preferrably in defensive stance) when fighting her, no exceptions. The reason for this is simple, Shield bash disrupts casting and can only be done when using a shield* (the advanced version will also silence, but I believe she is immune). I know DPS is a problem, but if we are relying on the warriors for DPS we are already screwed. I do not think we should only have one warrior bash at a time and co-ordinate so they don't overlap, as the danger of missing (the shield bash attack) is to high and the most important thing is disrupting the heal.

[EDIT] - In the interest of completeness it should be noted that a warrior in berserk stance with a 2-handed weapon can also disrupt casting(believe the ability is called "punch" or something like that). However, a warrior in berserk stance takes an additional 10% damage from all attacks, including magic, so i do not think this would be a wise tactic.

2. Assign earth shock/counterspell responsibilities. I think we need to have the raid leader and/or group strategist (for lack of a better term) designated to say, for example "Great heal - [groups] 1 and 3 disrupt" followed by "Great Heal - 2 and 4 disrupt." Again, we don't want to over complicate things, but we can't have everybody spam their disrupts the first time and then have everybody be in cool-down next time it happens.

Now, all of these comments are from my perspective "up close and personal" with the bat priestess, so I can't speak for how well the problems with the bats went. If anyone can let us know how difficult they are to handle, it would be much appreciated. I would note, however, that the sooner she takes enough damage to get to troll form, the less groups of bats we see. As for how to take out the bat riders that come out and drop bombs, i can't really say? Did anyone even manage to target one of them, can they be attacked or do we just want to outlast them?

Oh yes, one more thing. IF ANYONE NEEDS HEALING/MANA POTIONS IN THE INSTANCE PLEASE SAY SO AHEAD OF TIME. I have an alternate, Bantal who is an alchemist who can help with these (although he can only make superior, not major mana potions at this point). I am sure there are others who can help, provided they know ahead of time so they can get access to their bank, etc. I also may be able to scrape up some greater fire resist potions if we can get our hands on some elemental fire.

All in all, I was happy with our first foray. i am confident we will get her, just a question of time now.

[EDIT] - For all who read this, i would highly recommend the link to the RK forum, mayhemon put up some really good info.

,

Nylock

* corrected an error regarding the use of defensive stance and shield block

[Khanzal]

For the most part, I think we did alright, however:

The tanking-rotation foul-up only happened once with regards to the tanks themselves. Once the tanks had the order down (Nylock - Dims - Khanzal) we swapped out well. Problem is I'm not sure others in the group knew how to handle the rotations. When the main tank dies all the aggro they had built up in now a moot point. It's gone. That means the new tank has to build up to that level again. And yet people keep blasting. Thinking that I can just taunt and have the mob magically aggroed to me is insane. Just for the record, taunt is not an aggro tool, it is an attention-getting tool, period. They will look at me for two seconds, and then go back to killing the person they're mad at. Then I have to wait another 6-8 seconds before I can taunt again. My AOE taunt is even worse: ten minute cool down. It takes time for the tanks to build up hate. Give the new tank a second or two to build the aggro by laying on some sunder armors / revenge and then start blasting.

And while I'm in full warrior rant mode: if the mob is chasing you DO NOT RUN AWAY FROM ME! RUN TOWARDS ME! If you run towards me, I can pull the mob off you and get some aggro built up in the process. If you run away, I will still get the mob, just after it kills you.

Aggro management is a GROUP's responsibility, not the tank's. Anyone can pull a mob off a tank (any tank) with a series of crits or high damage or high healing, etc. I try to keep taunt up for such occasions (to pull them back long enough that I can revenge / sunder them again - like I said above, taunt is not equal to aggro, though I can use it to hold them in place so I can use my aggro tools). However, taunt can be silenced and resisted and suffers from the 8-second cooldown. The trick is knowing when you need to hold back and knowing when you can lay down the damage. A couple of times, usually right after a tanking change-over, I tried to stay on the priestess. I did what I could to get her attention but between the pyro-blasts, shocks and all that, it took too long to get her aggro-locked. When a mob is unaggroed, you will see it bounce from person to person. Stop hitting it so the tank can hold it in place.

Sorry about the 'taunt' rant, I just get sick of people thinking they can keep up high dps against an unaggroed target and then telling me to just 'taunt,' like that will fix it.

That being said: WE NEED TO KEEP THE MAIN TANK ALIVE. We don't have to stop DPS for a tank-swap if the main tank is still alive. Healers don't need to waste their mana trying to keep a dying tank up only to have to switch tanks to keep a second, then a third dying tank up.

I suggested one solution to this problem last night: of anyone in melee range, the main tank gets the heals. All of em. If you're in melee range and you're not the MT, your health is in your own hands (yes, this includes me). If you take a lot of damage, step back. Potion / bandage up. Get back in when you can. But do not expect heals in the beginning phase of the fight because you're not going to get any. Anyone that gets aggro off the main tank needs to stop and wait until they have the aggro back.

Splitting the priests into teams (or priest / shaman teams) is a good idea. Keep some in reserves so they can rotate in as needed. This would also work for the second phase of the battle - making sure there's always a shaman ready with a shock will make her heals much more problematic for her.

I'm not entirely convinced that using my two-hander would have been a bad idea. I have worked a lot with Nylock in the past. Typically he will tank the mob while I stand behind it with my Reaper. I have yet to see the mob turn on me. Provided I take precautions to watch my health (if we're following the all-healers-on-the-main-tank suggestion) and switch to sword and board when I'm "on-deck" to be the next tank, I think the added DPS may be worth it. I would most likely switch to sword and board for the second half anyway for sheild bash (which can be done from battle stance btw). Getting her down to half-health quickly will at least stop the bat attacks. After that, I can make sure she always has a mortal strike on her (healing reduced by half) in case she does get a heal off.

Leader communication during the fights would be a good idea. "Switch tanks, healing group two, Shaman group two ...." The leader should be the only one talking and they should call out group shifts as needed.

Bringing potions (mana, health, etc) is mandatory. Make them yourself, buy them, talk to Bantal ... just bring them.

I definately think that the members of RK, SOH and LP have the ability to take this dungeon on and beat it. And I'm sorry if I ruffled any feathers here. I take my job in the group seriously and if I need to do something I'm not doing, let me know. This is an end-game dungeon which means the mobs will follow roughly the same rule set as other mobs in the game but they have added abilities, more health and harder hits which means we need to reduce the margin of error and play our roles exceptionally well. If the tank loses aggro on a mob in Wailing Caverns, who cares? Most of those things die quick for their level. Tanks dying / losing aggro in ZG spells party wipe.

Yes this post was very warrior / tank -centric. Can't comment much on what other classes saw - was a little busy at the time. :)

My 2 cents.

[]RK[Mensrea]

Good post Khan; no feathers ruffled by by smart criticisms.

The bats did give the caster pack trouble. Not so much the first 1 or 2 flights, but the later ones. The first two flights diverted valuable mana from the Priestess to local AoE. It was just about after the thhird wave that we seemed to dry up, mana wise. The fourth wave seemd to hang around MUCH longer and cause a lot more damage to the cloth wearers.

One thing to note on interrupts- I would say she resisted my rank 1 ES at least 30% of the time. This makes it a bit trickier to reduce the ES shots to just 1 or 2 shaman at a time. We're on a relatively short timer, and it seems she took more than 6 seconds in between attempts to cast it. Is there a cool down on shield bash? Was it being resisted? How about the kicks?

[Creeper]

On a non-boss note, the bat-packs before the bat boss took my crew a few tries to figure out. We now assign one tank to each of the elites.. and get the elites tanked away from the group. Then we AoE'd the non-elites.. then burned down the elites, one at a time. For this we also had our tanks in full FR gear, to protect against the suicide bombings.

[Nylock]

Shield bash has a 12-second cool down. I can't recall it being resisited, but like any melee attack it casn be missed/dodged/etc.

[Khanzal]

RK[Mensrea']

One thing to note on interrupts- I would say she resisted my rank 1 ES at least 30% of the time. This makes it a bit trickier to reduce the ES shots to just 1 or 2 shaman at a time. We're on a relatively short timer, and it seems she took more than 6 seconds in between attempts to cast it. Is there a cool down on shield bash? Was it being resisted? How about the kicks?

There is a cool-down timer on shield bash (12 seconds). The cooldown on pummel is a bit less, I think, but as Nylock indicates in his post, pummel requires berserker stance which ups my damage taken by 10% or so (not a good idea if I have to tank).

There were two things I tried to apply in a timely fashion: shield bash and mortal strike. I didn't note the number of casts I tried on shield bash but a 30% miss rate seems likely. Same with Mortal Strike (healing reduced by half). On one memorable occasion, sheild bash missed when she was trying to heal and then mortal strike missed when I tried to at least curtail the healing. *Sigh*

Also: she is totally immune to warstomp (being a boss, it didn't surprise me, but I gave it a shot once).

On a related note, I tried these techniques with some measure of success:
- Demoralizing Shout (reduced her damage by 10-15%)*
- Thunderclap (slows attack speed)

These techniques can at least slow her rate of damage and the amount she does. I highly recommend that the warriors use these so the healers need to spend less mana less often.

I tried hamsting a couple times to slow her down but it was blocked each time.

I think that non-MT warriors should stand in battle stance for one reason: overpower. I noticed that she tends to dodge quite a bit (dodges "turn on" overpower). Overpower does weapon damage + <some number I don't remember> and has a high percentage crit rate. Rogues often refer to overpower as the warrior's "I win" button. It's a pretty hefty attack at any rate.

* Actual amount of the debuff varies depending on talents. I'm not sure off hand how much mine does.

[patrickgurdgiel]

For the most part, I think we did alright, however:

...Problem is I'm not sure others in the group knew how to handle the rotations. When the main tank dies all the aggro they had built up in now a moot point. It's gone. That means the new tank has to build up to that level again. And yet people keep blasting. Thinking that I can just taunt and have the mob magically aggroed to me is insane. Just for the record, taunt is not an aggro tool, it is an attention-getting tool, period. They will look at me for two seconds, and then go back to killing the person they're mad at. Then I have to wait another 6-8 seconds before I can taunt again....

....I'm not entirely convinced that using my two-hander would have been a bad idea. I have worked a lot with Nylock in the past. Typically he will tank the mob while I stand behind it with my Reaper. I have yet to see the mob turn on me. Provided I take precautions to watch my health (if we're following the all-healers-on-the-main-tank suggestion) and switch to sword and board when I'm "on-deck" to be the next tank, I think the added DPS may be worth it....

Bringing potions (mana, health, etc) is mandatory. Make them yourself, buy them, talk to Bantal ... just bring them.



I agree with the "Aggro is a group responsibility" thing, but just had another idea too....

Maybe Tank #2 should keep good eye on MT's health and then at less than 1/2 health, they should start to ramp up thier own aggro. I could see this potentially doing 2 different things:
1 - Unintentionally pull ALL the aggro and she immediately stops attacking MT - not exactly the intent of the suggestion, but might allow a priest to get the MT back up to full before they die
2 - Start to build up enough aggro so that when the MT does eventually bite it, she's raring to go at Tank #2, not a healer.

I know that's easier to say than do, but just a thought...

Also, for my part as a Shaman, didn't really use my potions - by late in the battle when I felt getting back the mana would have made a difference, the wipe was a foregone conclusion. Considering the length of the battle, maybe we intentionally blow a lot of mana first and use a potion right at the begining? Could bring more healing/DPS...

I think the sleep potions would be the way to go - they are almost made for getting back all your mana in one of those battles.

Pat aka Blunt

[stapuf]

Full resto shaman - mana tide = Timbosback. If put with cloth wearers, it is about 1000 mana per member?


Warlock - Arglefaster (sp?) and Tower.

[Enale]

I think the sleep potions would be the way to go - they are almost made for getting back all your mana in one of those battles.

Pat aka Blunt


Nah the sleep potions heal 1200 health & 1200 mana... with a mana pool over 6000 that's a drop in the bucket - i used one but found that for the other fights i got more use out of a major mana potion instead.

Enale

[Mayhemon]

It seemed that in both of the last attempts, aggro management was not established. The one involved casters overaggroing which brought her within silence range of the casters. The last one involved melee attacking before aggro was built up, resulting in dead rogues. Aggro has to be established with the tank before DPS starts. Rushing in and killing her will not work.

Healing rotations will very much help us. While rotation 1 heals, rotation 2 regens, while 2 heals, 1 regens. With low HP on our tanks and even lower MP on our healers, we will more than likely have to do this.

Silence should NEVER be on a caster. If it is, you got within 15 yards of her in bat form. Simple solution, stay at least 20 yards from her. Shadow Word: Pain is only cast on those between 5 and 15 yards from her. Simple solution: Don't back away if your melee and don't rush towards her if your a caster. Range is very important and quite easy to accomplish, we can avoid almost 1/2 of her attacks. She has a chain mana drain in troll form that quickly depletes the mana from each one it chains to; solution: stay away from her if you have mana.

During the bat phase, melee can not back up and bandage or potion. If you are between 5 and 15 yards of her, she will charge you repeatedly for close to 1500 damage with a 2 second knockdown stun. During troll phase, she'll cast a dot on you (interrupting bandaging) for 426-478 every 3 seconds.

Zul'Gurub is a teaching tool. Each boss has a script that involves extremes if the script isn't learned and fought. Most bosses have avoidable attacks. For example, the serpent boss has a chain damage spell that increases by 4,000 damage for each target it hits. By the time it gets to the 5th person, it hits for 25,000 damage... obviously something is not right. Simple solution, NOBODY but one warrior can get within 20 yards of him.

To beat the bat bitch, ranges must be adheared. If you have mana, stay at least 20 yards from her. If you don't have mana, never get more than 5 yards from her (unless your more than 20 yards from her). The problem is dps and healing. While you max out dps you reduce healing endurance (more need healed). A balance will need to be determined to take her down. Perhaps the melee (non-tanks) should sit back with the casters until she's down to 66% or so to avoid the 1100 damage AoE silence she casts. Perhaps a priest should be in a group with all melee and do nothing but heal them. Either way, a healing rotation is needed, it will be cleaner and will allow more regen during the fight to make up for our lack of mana pools.

For her heals, while spells/abilities such as war stomp and counterspell will result in a "Immune" message, they still interrupt her casting. She is a boss, so she will be immune to silence and stuns, however, counterspell, gouge, warstomp, etc will still interrupt her casting attempts along with shield bash, kick, and pummel (she's immune to the effect, not the interrupt).

[Creeper]

Zul'Gurub is a teaching tool. Each boss has a script that involves extremes if the script isn't learned and fought. Most bosses have avoidable attacks.

3 more bosses downed tonight, and I gotta say Mayhemon is right on. The trick to progressing quickly in ZG is to be fast learners. I have an advantage in that my group is decked out from months of MC farming, but we also learn fast. Of the 3 bosses we killed tonight (spider, snake, and dude on a raptor) .. we wiped once on spider, got snake 1st shot (although 1/2 the raid was dead) .. and I think raptor dude took 3 times, as we learned new tricks each time.

Be patient, but learn quickly, and follow instructions. You'll get it. :rockon:
(And as a side note.. there are some really, really nice drops in there. Well worth learning to farm the place, it will provide equipment upgrades for every class.)

[Khanzal]

I agree with the "Aggro is a group responsibility" thing, but just had another idea too....

Maybe Tank #2 should keep good eye on MT's health and then at less than 1/2 health, they should start to ramp up thier own aggro. I could see this potentially doing 2 different things:
1 - Unintentionally pull ALL the aggro and she immediately stops attacking MT - not exactly the intent of the suggestion, but might allow a priest to get the MT back up to full before they die
2 - Start to build up enough aggro so that when the MT does eventually bite it, she's raring to go at Tank #2, not a healer.

I know that's easier to say than do, but just a thought...



Problem is, you'll always know you're number one on the list because she'll be attacking you. Other "positions" are harder to gauge. I would be concerned about pulling aggro off the main tank. Not a bad idea to have at least a few (max 2) sunders on her for the back up tank. We would also need to be careful about overriding each others debuffs. For example, some warriors have improved battle shout - if I use my improved battle shout and another warrior tries to use their unimproved version, they can't. They will get a message saying 'a more powerful spell is in effect.' I'm not sure if this will directly effect tanking abilities or not. (The battle shout thing is just an example of an overridable skill, not a tanking technique but does increase damage dealt.)

[Khanzal]

3 more bosses downed tonight, and I gotta say Mayhemon is right on. The trick to progressing quickly in ZG is to be fast learners. I have an advantage in that my group is decked out from months of MC farming, but we also learn fast. Of the 3 bosses we killed tonight (spider, snake, and dude on a raptor) .. we wiped once on spider, got snake 1st shot (although 1/2 the raid was dead) .. and I think raptor dude took 3 times, as we learned new tricks each time.

Be patient, but learn quickly, and follow instructions. You'll get it. :rockon:
(And as a side note.. there are some really, really nice drops in there. Well worth learning to farm the place, it will provide equipment upgrades for every class.)

Wow! Gratz, Creeper! Would you mind writing up a blurb on the different bosses? Nothing elaborate, just: here's thier attacks, here's how to counter them?

Thanks!

<3 Creeper, the Official Ally SOH Forum Troll!! All hail!! :)

[Ghost_of_War]

It seemed that in both of the last attempts, aggro management was not established. The one involved casters overaggroing which brought her within silence range of the casters. The last one involved melee attacking before aggro was built up, resulting in dead rogues. Aggro has to be established with the tank before DPS starts. Rushing in and killing her will not work.

I think this is the abosolute key here.

IMO, we need Nylock to pull her outside of the bat range and beat on her for about a full 15 seconds or so with healers focusing on him. That should guarantee that Nylock holds the aggro. Once this is done, the other melee people can charge in and the casters can start spell slinging and us hunters can start shooting.

The DPS classes should avoid using spells that are overly mana intensive. Try to stick to spells that dish out decent sustained DPS and don't use spells that aren't worth it from a mana to DPS ratio. I don't know what those are for other classes but an example for a hunter would be to avoiding Serpent Stings. Although they are a great 800+ DOT effect, they cost too much mana to use in such a long fight.

One other thing, Nylock (or whoever the main tank is) should be the main focus of all healers... including Shaman. All of us are expendible except for the main tank so don't waste heals on us. If he lives, we will not have to worry about her jumping around and one shotting all of the low AC people and spamming Shadow Word Pain. The SWP seems to be by far her most dangerous attack. So, IMO healers should not heal anyone but Nylock... ever. We won't have to worry about the bats if we pull her away and the other melee classes won't have SWP on them if they stay close. So we should be able to focus all healing on Nylock at all times. Healing can go in rotations... a primary healer and backup. For example, put a priest and a shaman or druid in each group. Group 1 starts out with healing the MT, when the group 1 priest and shaman are out of mana group 2 picks it up and so on. This way group 1 will be recharging mana while groups 2-4 are taking their turns. That should allow our healers to maintain constant healing on the only person who matters (the MT) for the duration of the fight.

[Khanzal]

I think the trouble is group balancing like Mayhemmon says. We need to balance damage done verses "protection" aspects like healing and tanking.

Perhaps something along these lines will work:
A group consisting of:
- Main Tank
- Backup Tank
- Priest
- Priest
- Druid or Shaman

This group is a unit and ignores everyone else except their own members. The priests alternate between themselves for heals, the Shaman uses totems for buffs and small damage and is a backup healer for whichever priest is active. (or keeps the Heal Over Time and buffs on if it's a Druid in the group).

Another group consisting of:
- Other melee fighters (rogues and wars)
- A Shaman
- A Priest

This group is responsible for general melee damage. The Shaman buffs and is back up healer (as are other Shaman and the Druid(s)). The priest heals. This group is also self-sufficient and is not responsible for any other raid members except they must always defer to the 1st group in matters of aggro control. This group is lighter on healers so they will have to watch their health and aggro carefully. They may have to totally retreat (past 20 yards, where the healers should be anyway) at some point depending on their healers. Once they are set again, they can go in again. The raid leader may also call for the healers in this group to switch to group one healing. In that event, the melee members should retreat past the 20 yard mark and heal themselves as much as possible (potions) for the final fight.

The remaining groups should contain some healers and all the ranged damage people. Ranged damage should be focusing mainly on LOW MANA attacks (as Jaral says). If they get low on mana, they switch to wand damage / auto-attacks until sufficient mana is built up. The idea of the ranged group is to continue grinding her down.

These groups remain for the whole battle including both her forms. During the bat fire-bombing, people still spread out. Groups need to set their members far enough apart that one bat bomb doesn't kill all of them at once (ex: the priests for the first group should be standing on opposite sides from each other).

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

[Ghost_of_War]

I agree with what you're saying Khan but not if our MT survives and holds aggro.

If our MT holds aggro... who else do we absoutely need to heal?

Is there anybody?

IMO, everyone except the MT is expendable. All healers should rotate their healing on the MT for the duration of the fight keeping him at or above 80% of max health. If he holds aggro, at worst we might lose a couple of melee people to SWP. She seems less prone to switching targets once she hits troll form. So, slow, low-aggro DPS should come from the DPS classes making the first half of the fight last twice as long as the second. Once she shifts to her troll form, she can heal but generally seems to focus on killing one person at a time. At this point, aggro should be firmly locked in on the MT so we let the bitch have it... open up and blast the crap out of her.

$0.02

Jaral

[Khanzal]

Well, the idea behind my plan is to:
1) Minimize the damage to the group.
2) Maximize the healing potential by focused healing (groups needing high healing get more healers, groups needing less, get less).
3) Maximize the bang for the mana for casters.
4) Not have the fight last a long time.

The larger group of healers supports the main tank. There is a back up tank present if need be (they shouldn't need it, but just to be safe). This group will take most of the damage and gets most of the healing.

A smaller group of healers supports the general melee group. This group will take some damage (being in melee range, with the exception of the healers) so they get some healing and direction to leave if their healers need a break. The melee fighters are needed to widdle her health away as quick as possible.

The "caster" group(s) gets some healers too but is focussed on sustained DPS and mana preservation.

I am concerned that, without the second melee group, 1) the fight will tax the casters too much before the second half and 2) the casters may be encouraged to do higher damage spells, increasing the odds that they pull aggro from the tank with a crit which would put all the casters at risk.

I agree that the main tank MUST STAY UP throughout the fight. The second tank is a precaution only.

Ideally, this plan will result in fewer deaths, a generally high level of sustained DPS and no need to stop fighting for a new tank to take aggro. The melee fighters (with shield bash, kick, etc) would also remain right on hand for the second part of the fight (they would not need to close the distance, they would already be nearby).

I also expect that all the group will take some damage. If the bats come, if she wanders, if she slips aggro ... and in the second part of the fight (with her SWP and the fire-bombing bats) the rest of the group WILL take damage and they WILL need some healing. To deprive the rest of the group of healing would be bad, we just need it focussed more.

Perhaps the first group gets three priests, the second gets one priest and a druid and the rest get one; or the second melee group gets all shamans and druids only, all the priest stay on the tank .... There may be better ways to divide the healing. But it does need to be focused in certain areas and lessened (but not absent) in others.

[stapuf]

When is the next run?

Can I come along?

puf

[Creeper]

Wow! Gratz, Creeper! Would you mind writing up a blurb on the different bosses? Nothing elaborate, just: here's thier attacks, here's how to counter them?

Thanks!

<3 Creeper, the Official Ally SOH Forum Troll!! All hail!! :)

Ok, but you asked for it.
Since there's been a lot of discusion about healing, let me address our strategy for that in general. First, forget all about groups. They mean nothing. As a healer, I run CTRaid Assist, as is required of all healers. That means in MC I am monitoring 40 health bars, and avoiding mob AoE effects. In ZG I'm monitoring 20 health bars, and moving as the need arises. If the other classes are doing their job right.. they are mostly not taking damage, except the MT. This leaves us without much else to do with our time except keeping the MT alive, and casting a quick Heal-over-time at the other folks. I don't cast anything more than that on rogues, mages, hunters, etc etc.. cause if they actually hold agro.. they're gonna die anyway. So forget groups.. and focus on agro management being EVERYONE's job. The healing will naturally focus on the MT after that.

Next up: Batgirl. Clear the room, and pull her to the far side, away from the cave. Once pulled, give the MT a good 5-10 seconds to build agro. Next up.. drain her mana with anything you've got. That's all our warlocks and hunters do. Otherwise, rogues and warriors get in and melee, and everyone else ranged-attack from 30-ish yards away. Max range prefered. And pay attention when the bat-bombers fly in.. if you're taking damage.. move.

I think we hit Spiderman next. Again, clear the whole room, but he/she/it can be fought where they already are. This fight is mostly a test of how fast you can cure poisons. In Spider form, the guy does a poison attack that will hit easily 1/2 the raid at once. It hurts for something like 120-200ish per tick. (I think) That by itself isn't all that bad, except that it's a health-stealing poison. So each 150 health, on each player, per tick.. gets removed from you, and added to the boss. Bad news. Cleanse, cleanse, cleanse. Also double-tank it, as it will hit the MT with a web periodically, and just walk away. So someone else needs to be up high on the agro list, and spam taunts.

Snakey-guy has 4 helpers with him. In a perfect world, the MT grabs the snake guy, and one healer goes with him. At the same time, 3 of the adds get sheeped by a mage, while the 2nd tank grabs the 4th add, and everyone burns that down. Then 2nd tank finds a sheep, breaks it, and kills that one. Rinse and repeat as needed. Once the adds are down, the MT should move the boss into the center of the area below the alter. You'll understand when you see it. Tank there, NO OTHER MELEE!! Once in snake-form, he has this really, really, really nasty poison cloud thing. The MT has to really be on their toes, and get out of the cloud ASAP. You won't survive more than 2-3 ticks standing in it.

Next up we went and found a big troll on a raptor. Dunno his name. However, before you get to him, are some really hard mob pulls. They are kinda like the Blood Drinkers from ZF, only lvl 60 elite instead of lvl 40 elite. However, their fighting pattern is still the same. They'll do an AoE attack, and steal 300-ish (maybe more, I forget) health from anyone in range. So, you'll get them down to about 20% health.. then everyone in range takes a big hit, and the mob is back near 100%. So, once again, these mobs are a ranged fight. NO MELEE!! Anyone in range of their blood-drinking is a liability to the whole group. Also, they come in packs of up to 5 or 6 .. so you need really good crowd control. Roots, sheep, whatever. If you have to off-tank one or two, spread them waaay apart, and tank them waaay away from anyone else. Oh, and they AoE fear, so pull them back out of the big room they're in, and try to fight in the hallway leading up to them. Adds = bad.
Once you get to the raptor boss, clear as much of the room as you can. He'll charge around a bit, then jump off his raptor. Kill the raptor first, while the actual MT is tanking the boss. I don't recal any AoE attacks, so you can all bunch-up a bit for this one. He does AoE fear though, so either clear the whole room before you get to his room, or dont' fight him near the door. He will ocasionally announce "I'm watching Ghostofwhore" .. and if that happens to you.. dont.. do.. anything. Don't attack him, don't heal anyone else, and probably dont' potion up either. Just stand there and look pretty, or ugly, since you're all horde. :eyes: He will then start watching someone else, and they have to do nothing, and you may attack again. If you fail to stop all attacks while being watched (MT aside btw.. MT keep tanking) you will die. And everyone will laugh at you for not paying attenion, and you'll still be dead too. Oh.. but after you die, some friendly neighborhood spirits will ask if you'd like a free battle-rez, right there. The answer is NO!!. If you rez, the boss gains a level. He even yells "Ding" or "Grats" about it, and now has more health, hits harder, and is harder to hit, because he did in fact just gain a level. Do not rez.

That's as much as I know... although I think we're going back tonight. Happy hunting, dirty horde scum. :ink:

[Creeper]

Ooops.. due to excessive UTage.. I missed tonight's run. So no new info 'till next week I think.