Joint SOH / Red Knights raid on MC

[Khanzal]

As some may have noticed in the Red Knights thread, we are thinking of taking an initial stab at Molten Core. We are under no illusions - this will be a real bear. We will have no particular goal except to get as far as we can and see what's in there.

We are trying to decide on a date and time to attempt this. The current arranged date and time are:

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| Official Date and Time: Saturday, Sept 10th at 7pm server time |
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As more people weigh in, I will edit this post so the date and time are always the most recent that we have agreed upon.

Once the raid on MC is "complete" (when we decide that we've wiped enough times or have gone as far as we can :) ) we will take the opportunity to raid something else (UBRS, Scholo, Strath ... whatever).

Even though we expect to not get very far, the raid will help us determine what kinds of changes in strategy we may need for a more serious push, what kinds of equipment / gear / potions we'll need and some other stuff too. We may also get some good drops and some reagent we could use for various things (lava cores, fiery cores, etc).

One thing I recommend doing before we head off to Blackrock mountain for MC is to set your hearthstones to Kargath. Once we're done with MC, we can stone to the same place, repair up and then we're all together for the next raid (wherever that is).

[]RK[Mensrea]

I'm in.

I'll make sure that the word is out on our forums.

[Mayhemon]

Even though we expect to not get very far, the raid will help us determine what kinds of changes in strategy we may need for a more serious push, what kinds of equipment / gear / potions we'll need and some other stuff too. We may also get some good drops and some reagent we could use for various things (lava cores, fiery cores, etc).

I can cover this if wanted. I'll put it into a nice readable format (that means I'll type something up and have Mensrea read it, lol... grammar isn't my thing) and post it up here. Basically, the first mobs are pretty straight forward.

Needed :
Main tanks who are close or who have finsihed their Tier 1 set x 2 (gear better than Tier 1 of course is... well, better. But everyone knows their class sets and knows if they are above or below it, so it's a good reference).

Healers on the tanks who have finished their Tier 1 (priest or druid) x 3

Warlock with Banish on their hotbar x 2 (2, of course, is not needed. But having 2 warlocks casting banish at the same time will help against resists, a resist which results in a dead warlock in one-shot)

Voice comms. Clear and concise communication. Don't panic. Be patient. One of the common tactics throughout MC is the starting and stopping of DPS. While the main tank slaps away on a mob, DPS should be halted, healing should rotate. This keeps aggro on the class that can take it, the warrior. When DPS (attacking) starts, it may need to be halted quickly if aggro shifts (stuns, lag, all that fun out of our control stuff). So comms is necessary.

I'll get together the tactics I've seen used in MC that have worked and post them up here. They may not be for our group, however, but it should be something we can use until it stops working. I'm thinking we should be fine until Luci as long as our pulls are good, healing is on time, and our DPS folks start and stop when needed.

On that note, it would be very beneficial to have an engineer with the capability to make a repair bot. Melee should bring more than one weapon. If anyone could volunteer to have CT_Raid Assist, it would help with the Lava Surger respawn times.

[Bysanche]

I'll try to be there. 60 Orc Hunter btw. Going to be running instances to gear up for this until then. Looking forward to it, and props to the Red Knights + SOH for this being set up! =)

[Creeper]

Being Alliance, I don't know the real healing capacity of Shamans, but if it's anything like Paladins.. you'll need more than 3 preist/druids. We tend to run with 10 or more. (roughly 5 of each)

Once you're done kinda playing around, you have to pull through to Lucifron pretty fast, as the dogs have a fast respawn, and you have to get to 'safety' (as we call Lucifron.. lol) pretty fast.

If you beat lucifron, and have the 5 tanks needed for the dog packs.. it's highly recommended to try Magdamar too, as his death halts further dog respawns.

The only other tip I'll give is that up until the lava packs post-Garr, Tanks are the only ones who need FR, and even then, stats > FR. Lava packs.. ugh.. need lots of FR .. but you're a while away from those.

Good luck!



(oh, and die dirty horde mongrels!!!!)

[Khanzal]

I can cover this if wanted. I'll put it into a nice readable format (that means I'll type something up and have Mensrea read it, lol... grammar isn't my thing) and post it up here. Basically, the first mobs are pretty straight forward.

Needed :
Main tanks who are close or who have finsihed their Tier 1 set x 2 (gear better than Tier 1 of course is... well, better. But everyone knows their class sets and knows if they are above or below it, so it's a good reference).

Healers on the tanks who have finished their Tier 1 (priest or druid) x 3

Warlock with Banish on their hotbar x 2 (2, of course, is not needed. But having 2 warlocks casting banish at the same time will help against resists, a resist which results in a dead warlock in one-shot)

Voice comms. Clear and concise communication. Don't panic. Be patient. One of the common tactics throughout MC is the starting and stopping of DPS. While the main tank slaps away on a mob, DPS should be halted, healing should rotate. This keeps aggro on the class that can take it, the warrior. When DPS (attacking) starts, it may need to be halted quickly if aggro shifts (stuns, lag, all that fun out of our control stuff). So comms is necessary.

I'll get together the tactics I've seen used in MC that have worked and post them up here. They may not be for our group, however, but it should be something we can use until it stops working. I'm thinking we should be fine until Luci as long as our pulls are good, healing is on time, and our DPS folks start and stop when needed.

On that note, it would be very beneficial to have an engineer with the capability to make a repair bot. Melee should bring more than one weapon. If anyone could volunteer to have CT_Raid Assist, it would help with the Lava Surger respawn times.

Sweet! A basic strategy guide would be a good idea - lets us know how to approach each battle. For comms, SOH has its own team speak server. I know a fair number of us also have Vent as well. (Note: people anticipating going on the raid should probably get both).

Tanking armor set ... Hmm. Right now Khanzal has been using a mish-mash of pieces when tanking (all + defense stuff and great armor but low on stamina, although this is improving). Some of my gear has better stats (with regard to tanking) than the tier one (Valor) set IMO. My anticipated tanking gear for MC will be:

Dark Iron Shoulders (http://thottbot.com/?i=8450)
Stonegrip Gauntlets (http://thottbot.com/?i=38415)
Avengard Helm (mainly for the stamina)(http://thottbot.com/?i=5037)
Legplates of the Eternal Guardian (http://thottbot.com/?i=8477)
Kromcrush's Chestplate (http://thottbot.com/?i=35754)
Bracers of Valor (http://thottbot.com/?i=22067)
Other odds and ends pieces to boost stats, improve armor, etc.

I am hoping this set + potions of fire resist + shammy fire resist totems should give me a decent chance at tanking MC (as an off-tank). Nylock has most (if not all) of the enchanted thorium armor set and is also protection-specced (Khan is a cookie-cutter look-at-my-slow-two-hander mortal-strike arms/fury set up). I am thinking Nylock would be a good main tank candidate. Khan could be a Main Assist or generic off-tank candidate.

I recommend warlocks stock up on soul shards (?) BEFORE setting foot in the instance. Healthstones and soulstones will probably help a great deal.

I'm also glad you brought up the point about DPS maintenance - when aggro breaks, mobs tend to run after the person they're maddest at. I've tanked in situations where the mob basically ping-pongs around the group slaughtering people while the poor tanks chase after them attempting to get aggro back (and taunt is only an attention-getter, NOT a means of generating aggro). Having people STOP BLASTING when the mob begins to wander so the tanks can re-attain aggro-lock is a great idea.

[Mayhemon]

The 3 priest comment was just regarding the two giants at the entrance :) Yeah, for Luci, we're gonna need a good healing crew. Not only the shaman/paladin difference exists... us horde folk don't have fearward :(

While looking for maps, I came across an EXCELLENT strategy site about Molten Core. I really thought the RSTS section was done nicely. RSTS is used by all bosses and a few mobs within MC. At random, at no fault of the player, they will become a secondary target.

http://www.hachima.com/wow/strats/moltencore/Map.php

Fire is important, but alot of shadow exists in MC as well.

I'm still gathering feedback on the date/time. It looks like we're up to 3 who can't make it.

[Nylock]

This is a great idea and i am definately down.

I will be playing Nylock, my undead warrior. Basic stats are as follows, rough approximation (all unbuffed). 4.5k health, 6.5k armor, 350-60 defense. I have all three Enchanted Thorium Plate items anhd several other +defense items (dreading the upcoming reduction in next patch......grrrrrrrrr). I pretty much consider my tier one set "done" as I perfer the enchanted thorium items to the valor set and I am underwhelmed by the valor set bonuses as opposed to +defense from the Enchanted Thorium Set.

BTW - All of the enchanted thorium set items were made by me, so if any Red Knights have the materials and want them made, let me know.

Currently, my FR stuff is minimal as i only really have the Dark iron shoulders, and i would perfer to wear the shoulders I got from DM that give me a defense bonus. HOWEVER, my alt, Bantal, is an alchemist who can make greater fire protection potions for anyone who has spare elemental fire laying around (I have some dreamfoil, but exras would be greatly appreciated). Please contact either bantal or Nylock for details if you want potions made.

Greater Fire Protection Potions:
http://www.thottbot.com/index.cgi?i=5390

Also, I am already attuned to the core, although my previous experience in MC didn't last very long..... ;-(

,
Nylock

[]RK[Mensrea]

I can hit ya with some dreamfoil Nylock. Remind me in game and I'll mail it to ya.

[Jokebook]

I would love to be included in this. Consider me present at the above date and time!!!

Abicus (warrior)

I look fairly similiar to Khanzal gear wise. Tanking in UBRS has been fun, but I would like to step up the competition, this is a big step....hehe.

390 def
5000 AC
-with my 2hander

360 def
7000 ac
- with 1h shield

[Khanzal]

I think it's probably a good idea to review the warrior stats to determine main / off tanking responsibilities.

Khanzal's stats are roughly as follows (all unbuffed and in my "tanking" gear):
- Roughly 4.5k Hit points
- Around 6.3 k armor (/w shield)
- Defense around 356

Khan is a 31/20 arms / fury warrior. No defensive-tree selections at all. He does have defensive stance (you'd be surprised how many don't ... sigh) and I know how to use it, but my aggro tool set is not to the level of someone like Nylock who is defensive-specced.

My typical role in instances has been off-tank: I tank the mob everyone is killing anyway or hang back a bit and go after mobs that attempt to get to the "squishies." Occasionally, in instances where I'm fairly familiar with the mob trends or where they are significantly lower level, I will pull out my two-hander and go for DPS - the main tank tanks the mob and I beat on it from behind with my Reaper.

[]RK[Eightball]

I will definatly be going saturday. My Warrior gear is not up to par yet, got 2 valor peices and picked up nice helm from Strath yesterday. I will probably be swinging the 2Hander for part of the night. I am Deffensive spec. 14 Arms/ 37 Protec. So I can tank. We may want to start compiling a list of those going and what Class they play.

[Enale]

Being Alliance, I don't know the real healing capacity of Shamans, but if it's anything like Paladins.. you'll need more than 3 preist/druids. We tend to run with 10 or more. (roughly 5 of each)


(oh, and die dirty horde mongrels!!!!)


Hey Creeper - maybe you can answer a question for me from a healing standpoint. I have most of the devout gear, but am carrying 2 extra healing sets - one that is all +healing gear and another that is all +mana regen gear. I've heard that in MC the key priest attribute is mana regen not actually having the tier 1 gear... is that true?

And as for the dying - i'm sure we will lots and lots ;)
I was proud that on my first MC attempt I survived 2 hits from the giant...

:p Enale

[Creeper]

If your +healing items are green, dont use them, as they usually have no other stats. I prefer a mix of +healing and +mana regen, and DM has several very, very nice blues that have both. There's a cloth belt with both(DM East, last boss), cloth pants with both(DM Wst, Hunter boss), robe with +10mana/5sec(DM North, Tribute), and I use 2 Ring of Demonic Guile's with +10 int, and +6mana/5sec(DM East, last boss). Special bonus points if you can farm a mindtap talisman, trinket for +11 mana/5sec (DM West, Undead boss, who also drops a very nice caster necklace complete with Fire Resistance) Also Emerald Flame Ring from last West boss (the prince) has nice +12 int, and I think +15 to heals.

Basically.. for trash mobs, just have a bunch of mana. The named Boss fights take a lot more time, so the +mana/5sec has enough time to really work, and will provide your only mana for the last 1/2 of the fight. Also make sure your Druid(s) have innervate, and know to cast it on a preist, rather than on themselves.

[stapuf]

Is everybody attuned?

Do we need to do a quick raid to get everybody attuned that isn't?

Would suck to show up at MC and die before you get in :)

[missuspuf]

hi all -

you can count bull (or tower) and mpuf in. has anyone thought about a vent or TS gameplan? i know each guild has capabilities for each, we need to just decide what we are going to use. iit would be great if we could all be able to talk/hear....

mpuf

[]RK[Mensrea]

I think everyone is attuned from our side; we took Delda (priest) thru on Sunday to get it.

We're using Vent right now; all of our members should have TS capability as well, since we switched over relatively recently. We can kinda play that by ear when we get going I think.

I think the one thing to emphasize with regards to comms is more discipline; given the need to co-ordinate attacks on a much higher level, lets try and keep the comms open as much as possible and use typed chat for the banter.

[Khanzal]

Proposed Itinerary / Raid Set up

Based on the responses to this thread thus far, sounds like we’re a go for the MC Raid. W00t!! :)

Here is my proposed set up for the raid:

Personal Prep
Armor and trinkets / rings - Make sure you have the best armor set on you for an instance (stat bonuses to help healing for healer classes, defense / armor for warriors, etc). Also wear any supporting trinkets to help boost your stats as needed. Also, make sure you are repaired BEFORE leaving to go raid. Don’t go to the raid with your armor at half. (There is a repair person in Kargath if you need repairs.)

Weapons - Make sure you have the right weapons combos to be effective. I have no trouble with warriors using two-handers but you should bring your sword-and-board set up just in case. Also stock up on arrows, bullets, throwing axes, sharpening stones, whatever.

Potions / Food – stock up on health potions and other health / mana items you may need (mana biscuits, stamina food, etc). As I understand it, there is relatively little need for fire resistance in the early parts of the dungeon, however, try to have a few on you just in case. SHAMAM BRING ANKHS!

Attunement – On this particular raid, you will need to have completed the “Attuned to the Core” quest (see http://thottbot.com/?q=15874). There is some confusion about the need for attunement. If you enter Molten Core without being attuned, you will not die (there is an instance entrance in BRD you can walk into without attunement). HOWEVER, in order to use the portal beside the contact in Blackrock mountain, you WILL need attunement. Attempting to use the portal without attunement will not drop you into the instance (as it does for those with attunement). It will drop you into lava … then you die. We will be using the contact’s portal to enter MC so people will need to have completed their attunement quest. If you need to do Attunement to the Core, I recommend using the /SOHRK channel to see if others that want to raid with us also need it or would help you out with it. (I would volunteer to help but I am not sure what my schedule will look like for the next couple days.)


Rough Schedule / Set up
People need to be IN KARGATH at the proposed raid time (see the first post in this thread for the official time).

Set your hearthstone to Kargath.

Raid set up.

Check TeamSpeak set up for all participants.

Go over loot rules.

Go over general strategy (at least to first section). Establish Main Tank, Off Tanks, Main Assist, The Puller, etc.

Leave for MC 30 minutes after the meeting time.

Run MC until:
- The first boss is defeated (if we make it to the first boss and defeat him, we can debate whether or not we go further).
- We have wiped enough times to call it a day (I think three times is enough to decide to end it).
- We run into debilitating difficulties which, though they don’t result in wipes, cost us enough people each time that we would be better off leaving.
- We just decide to do something else.

Stone back to Kargath.

After-action review. I would like the guild leadership to take some time to go over what worked / didn’t work during the raid with a mind to future improvements. All raid members are welcome to participate. Do we need more of a certain class? Less of a certain class? More emphasis on healing, tanking, ranged damage…? Is there any one thing that really screwed us over? Is there anything that worked to our advantage and should be implemented in future raids?

Do something else. Since we’re just exploring at this point, there are no real goals in mind. Don’t feel bad if we don’t get too far – it’s our first time and we’re likely to do OK but take a real beating in the process. (I am hopeful that we’ll do really well – I definitely think we’re a talented bunch.) We get as far as we do – we may be done in fifteen minutes or we could be at it for three hours. Since we’ll have a lot of people from SOH and the Red Knights present, and if we finish with MC early enough, it would be cool to arrange for some other raids. If we’ve stoned back to Kargath, it would be relatively simple to repair up, sell the junk and then hit UBRS. We could also go hit Scholo or Strath. If people want, we could also break down the large raid into smaller groups and we could end up running several different dungeons (5-man teams to DM, a bunch to Scholo, etc), going to Alterac Valley or doing something else.


Comms
I propose using the Sovereigns of Honor TeamSpeak set up for voice communications during the raid. It has seemed relatively stable and will provide an invaluable means of sharing information quickly during the raid.

If you do not have TeamSpeak set up on your PC, it is easy to get. Go to http://www.goteamspeak.com and download the program (it is free). You may want to play around with it a little before the raid if you are unfamiliar with it. Before leaving for the dungeon, we’ll make sure everyone is connected and has access.

You will need a microphone to be heard during the raid. Even without a mic, you can still listen in using your PC speakers (and I’d recommend doing so).

PLEASE KEEP THE COMM CHANNEL FREE OF CHAT WHILE IN THE INSTANCE. We are all fairly friendly and like to joke around with each other but please keep the voice channel clear for important info regarding the instance and leader directions. Feel free to joke around in the chat channel (/raid) or whisper the person you want to talk to.

I am a big proponent of using the “push-to-talk” feature in TeamSpeak – you designate a key to press before speaking. When the button is not pressed, nothing will go through the comm channel. Push-to-talk filters out background noises, cursing (yeah, I’m guilty of this one), ringing phones, barking dogs, significant others saying “OMFG are you playing that stupid game AGAIN!?” and, well, you get the idea. It also helps bypass some of the issues in setting mic sensitivity thresholds (you can lower the mic threshold so you won’t have to yell to trigger the comm connection or worry about it being too low so background noises open the channel).


Loot rules for this MC Raid
One need, one set.

BOE – All roll. If someone needs something someone else wins, the winner should give them the item. This counts as that person’s need. If the winner also needs the item, they get to keep it and it counts as their need. If you claim need on a BOE item, you need to equip it right there. You do not have to use the item during the MC instance if you choose not to, just equip it. (There are some items that require that skills be up in order to use - MC is not the place to work on your 1h sword skills). Then you can stick it in a bag for the rest of the instance and go back to using whatever you want. You will not need to equip the item if its a BOE and no one called need.

BOP – If you need the item, type “need” or “n” in the raid window and roll using the dice icon in the little box. DO NOT PASS if you need. If everyone passes, we /random 100 (or /roll) for it.

If you do not intend to equip and use an item, it is greed.

Also, for this raid anyway, there will be no distinctions between greens, blues and epics. If you need it, you need it. Whether it's BOP or BOE, follow the guidelines above. This is MC, we may well see some purple items drop. Go ahead and claim need if you really need it (equip and use).

This raid will not count toward the “DKP” system. The DKP (or dragon kill points) system would reward points for participating in raids that you could in turn “spend” to get items on a raid. Since there is no agreed-upon system yet, we will just run this instance like any other raid instance.

This is my proposed plan for the raid. If anyone has something they want to add, change or whatever, please post it to the forums and we can make adjustments as we go.

See you in-game!

- Khan

[Nylock]

Good post as always Khan....

I would like to suggest one more thing, if you call need on a BOE item you must equip that item IMMEDIATELY. That way nobody calls need on a sweet item and then we all see it in the AH the next day.


Other than that, looks great to me. If nothing else, it should help us determine whether or not a DKP system is necessary.


,

Nylock

P.S. - if anyone in SoH or RK has 300 engineering and does not have the plans for the repair bot, please let me (or my alt, Bantal) know........ we can set up a BRD raid and get them with a 100% drop rate. ;-)

http://www.thottbot.com/index.cgi?i=39126

[Khanzal]

Good suggestion Ny. I added it to the original message.

[stapuf]

khanzal should be an officer if he isn't already; just for the epic'ness of his post.


:)

[stapuf]

Tower is about 280 engineering....won't be to 300 by MC.

Sooooo, you will be joined by Bullpuf with 15 anks.

[Creeper]

Just as a peice of trivia.. there are very very few BoE items in MC. Epic class-set bracers and belts are it. And they're rare. The only blue-item drops are Lava Cores and Fiery cores, so don't get too excited about loot. No cash either, except on bosses.


As for loot distribution, as long as it's clear before hand, it should be ok. What my guild did when we were doing joint MC raids was basically each guild had a 'roller'. The two rollers, one from each guild, would roll on an item. The highest roller's Guild would then distribute the item using internal DKP bidding. Buit that only works if both guilds already have internal DKP systems. Most MC drops are class-specific, or are clearly most beneficial for 2, sometimes 3 classes. The other guild we were doing raids with would basically distribute loot based on who would benefit the overall raid the most by having it. Stronger overall raid = more dead bosses = more phat loot. Of course, eventually the two guilds got in loot fights, and 'broke up' as it were, but we both had gained a lot of MC experience by then that we otherwise wouldn't have. So it all works out in the end.

[]RK[Mensrea]

Excellent post Khan. My anticipation for this is growing moment by moment!

[stapuf]

Just as a peice of trivia.. there are very very few BoE items in MC. Epic class-set bracers and belts are it. And they're rare. The only blue-item drops are Lava Cores and Fiery cores, so don't get too excited about loot. No cash either, except on bosses.


As for loot distribution, as long as it's clear before hand, it should be ok. What my guild did when we were doing joint MC raids was basically each guild had a 'roller'. The two rollers, one from each guild, would roll on an item. The highest roller's Guild would then distribute the item using internal DKP bidding. Buit that only works if both guilds already have internal DKP systems. Most MC drops are class-specific, or are clearly most beneficial for 2, sometimes 3 classes. The other guild we were doing raids with would basically distribute loot based on who would benefit the overall raid the most by having it. Stronger overall raid = more dead bosses = more phat loot. Of course, eventually the two guilds got in loot fights, and 'broke up' as it were, but we both had gained a lot of MC experience by then that we otherwise wouldn't have. So it all works out in the end.

Just roll horde on Bloodscalp already.

[Creeper]

Lies.

[Mayhemon]

To add:

No looting in combat... NO LOOTING. This place will take our full concentration the first time, hell, maybe even the 10th time, through. Distractions such as a purple word could cause a wipe.

If your going AFK, having lag problems, communicate it. Do not walk away thinking you have enough time to get back. We're all patient people and will wait on you, please speak up.

Chat channels: 40 people on voice comms can get VERY hectic. We can create channels to help communicate side-conversations (text channels). Usually a healer channel, a tank channel, and a DPS channel are made.

No non-raid conversations in Raid chat. Raid chat should be reserved for raid communication only, such as "No fort on Group 3" "I need water" etc. For witty banter, use the /s command. We will be together in an instance, only we/us/the group will hear the /s chat.

Communication, 40 friends, and level 58+ people with level appropriate gear is all that is needed in MC. If communication breaks down, so will everyone's health bar. Keeping it clear and clean will help, but that doesn't mean it has to be locked down, either. I've been on comms where it was announced that we were "entering combat soon", which meant all chatter stopped, people paid attention to the plans, everyone checked their buff/debuff situation. After a fight, during loot, comms was "open" and people started joking around again. I'm a believer that this is more of a social event than a "get me my loot" kind of deal. But the socializing has to take a break when the fighting starts :)

[]RK[Eightball]

Just wanted to say that I had a great time saturday, I really feel we did a great job for only having 25 poeple. Hopefully we will be able to set dates that more poeple can attend, and make a serious attempt sometime soon. The UBRS run afterward went verry well, as did the 10-man BRD run sunday morning to get 3 more poeple atuned.

My thoughts: More healing, and also, we had no druids at all. Our 60 Druid is unable to attend saturdays, does SOH have any available? We also have another priest who was unable to make it that night.

The only thing that really stopped us were the respawns, and I atribute that to the time spent rezzing after the mass deaths following the tanks dropping. Maybe some sort of healing rotation stratedgy should be set up in the future.

All in all, was a good learning experience, and also, a Confidence builder. I suggest we plan another attempt in a few weeks, I know on our side, we have a few about to hit that level range, and hopefully a time can be set that more will be able to make it, hopefully giving us a solid 30+. I know the time zone issue works against us as well as RL, would a Friday night, sunday afternoon/evening start work better or worse?

[Khanzal]

The raid on Molten Core went rather well considering it was our first time in and that we had only 25 people. Theoretically, we should not have made it as far as we did. An excellent job was done by all!

Things that worked well
Letting the tanks gain aggro before blasting away helped in most circumstances (except the rock elementals which bounce around the group anyway). The healing / curse removal was excellent as well. Some of the Core Hounds have nasty curses which do DOTs in increments measured in the thousands. The healers were also doing an outstanding job. In one instance, the tanks (Nylock and Eightball) dropped so I did what I could to tank one of the giants - my health meter was interesting to watch - full, half, full, half, sliver, half, sliver, half, full, 1/4, 3/4, sliver, giant down. :) Kudos to the player (a Red Knight, sorry don't recall the name) who brought the field repair bot. I suggest next time we have someone that can bring one, they bring it and everyone in the raid chip in some money to pay for it (I'll bet they ain't cheap to build). Our pulling strategy was right on the money.

Things that need work
We need more healers (priests in particular). Based on the incident tanking the giant I mentioned above, it was pretty appearant to me that I had multiple people spamming heals at me. No one heals like a priest, so more of them are needed. Druids with combat rez capability would also be bonus (SOH has one Druid at 50 or so). We needed more people to show up for the raid. The attendance is mainly a timing issue (East coast / central / west coast) and we're working on coming up with some better times when more people can go.

I think other problems we encountered will work themselves out - we're a talented group and we will end up breaking MC. Whom to heal when, what to do with the curses / fear effects, dealing with comm chatter are things we worked out as needed.

One gripe I had (nothing to do with the group) is the overall lack of loot in MC. For the time we spent in there, all most of us got was a substantial repair bill. Perhaps some of the drops we got which were worth anything should be auctioned and the money distributed among the participants? Or someone can purchase the drops if needed? Just some ideas - I'd like for people to feel like they can participate and will at least get something for their effort, not "great, another MC run that will cost me 10 gold in addition to what I'll lose out on if I had done something else."

And a special /salute to Beezle for guiding our n00b selves through our 1st MC run.

Looking forward to our next run!

[Nylock]

Agreed, it was a rewarding experience for Nylock as well, although not from a financial perspective ;-).

I think that as we keep playing we will do better and better. That being said, there was one thing I thought we might also want to set up next instance, designated back-up tanks.

For example, say Khanzal is Nylock's designated back up. When Nylock goes down against a mob, Khanzal immediately becomes primary tank for the mob. Every healer who was healing Nylock then knows to IMMEDIATELY begin healing Khan with equal ferocity.

The downside is that it will reduce the back-ups versatility as he will effectively be forced to keep some aggro on the MT's mob. In effect, he is taken out of the equation as far as placing mass DPS on the off-tank's mob. (unless, of course, he is backing up the off-tank).

It appears from the above statements thay we handled the MT going down reasonably well, and that this may be an unnecessary complication. Obviously, we don't want to have so many rules that people can not keep track of them, and people need to be able to react to unexpected situations. Any feedback from the healers would be helpful.

,

Nylock
(also Bantal, the aforementioned lvl 50 druid)

[Khanzal]

I am not overly-concerned about possible back-up tanks loosing versatility provided they can quick-swap items as needed. Not so much armor, which can't be quick-swapped in combat anyway, but weaponry.

When I was focusing on DPS on the mob Eightball was tanking, I would essentially stand behind the mob and wail on it with my Reaper. I would also keep my designated weapons bag open. When Eightball went down, I would:
- Right click 1-h axe (auto-replaces Reaper)
- Right click sheild (pops into off hand)
- Defensive stance (I have this hotkeyed)
- taunt

At this point, keeping the mob on me is basic tanking / team work. The whole process takes less than a second.

Note: in the next patch, they are implementing a global cool-down of abilities after a weapon swap. That may put enough of a damper on the weapons-swap tactic so it won't be viable anymore. 1.5 seconds is a long time to be unable to at least taunt an unaggroed mob.

Designating back-up tanks is a good idea. I'm thinking also that using voice comms can help in this situation since the new tank does not have full aggro-lock yet

For example:
Nylock is tanking a giant with Khan as the back up. Nylock dies.
- Say your name in the comm channel followed by "tank down." (So people know a tank has died and they know which tank)
- At the words "tank down" people stop firing at the target while the secondary tank sheilds up and gets in tank mode.
- Secondary tank gets in a taunt followed by a few sunder armors, etc.
- People start blasting again.

That can also be the queue for the Druid to rez the primary tank, heal them up and send them back in. At which point we could use comms for the mob switch-off back to the primary tank again.

While I think we could use some kind of switch-off routine, I think you're right to worry about getting too complex.

<dream fade>
Nylock tanks a mob ... the mob kills Nylock

Nylock: "CODE BLUE!! SIT 145-B, ALAMO!! ALAMO!!!"

Khanzal: ...

The mob runs rough-shod over the group, kills everyone and returns to it's position.

Khanzal: "Hey! Nylock died and I was supposed to tank the mob!!"

Nylock: "Duhh!! What was the hold up??"

Khanzal: "Well, first I couldn't find my decoder ring. And then I looked it up in the green code book just to realize it only goes up to code 120, so I had to look in the purple code book. Then I forgot the 'b' after the 145 so I was looking for the standard 145 which, of course, is ignore the mob and mine thorium. I looked on my mini-map and there's no thorium here, so then I thought about when you said 'Alamo' which meant leave the instance but then I realized that's what it USED to mean and now it means ... <continues babbling for 15 minutes as people release, spirit rez and put together a UBRS group>"

</dream fade>

:p

[]RK[Mensrea]

The lack of healers, notably druids, was a major issue. This also hurt us in that we were without the buffs (MoW, thorns) and faerie fire. We have one druid in RK who is at 60, but weekends are not good for him. We also had two priests abesnet that we expected to be there, but could not make it.

Our co-ordination was solid. Comm discipline was pretty good, excellent while the combat was going along. We even got pretty good healing coverage after the first pull.

The lack of clear back up tanks was an issue, especially in the first giants pull. The confusion over who was stepping up cost us some time and efficiency. I think the idea of designated backups is a good one. Raid leader should probably call out the switch when it occurs.

I'm not sure MC will ever be a money making proposition. I know Eightbal's bill was over 3g at the repair bot, so I threw him 1.5 g just to cover some of it. I think we only had a couple of drops (I won the essence of earth; we had one other Essence drop, I think) and then the core leather skins. For RK, the leather is going in our guild bank. Since our web site is down, I haven't been able to get a discussion going on whether to save the essence of earth for future guild use.

The lack of regular drops is the big issue- MC is very much about delayed gratification, as you might have to make several runs before getting any loot.

That being said, I can't wait to get in there again :)

[Ghost_of_War]

All I have to say is... hunter pulls are the shiznit! ;) (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

A couple of ideas...

Why not make the run on Sunday nights? Would that work better for people? My Saturdays are usually full with searching for Miss Right, or Miss Rightnow so it's rare that I'm available on Saturdays for an MC run.

Backup Tanks: When MT dies, Taunt first, then switch gear to avoid the cool-down problems after the new patch.

[Khanzal]

Backup Tanks: When MT dies, Taunt first, then switch gear to avoid the cool-down problems after the new patch.

I was thinking of that. After the patch: def stance, then taunt, then switch gear. Problem is, taunt isn't aggro-inducing (it basically means 'hey, look at me') and only lasts a second or two. The timer for the gear cool-down may exceed the ability of taunt to keep the mob - I need to Sunder Armor or do something to aggro the mob once I have its attention. If I'm still waiting for my skills to come back while taunt wears off ... bad things happen. We'll have to see how it goes.

Also:
Hunter pulls certainly do rule in MC!

And:
Sundays late afternoon / early evening raids would work ok for me on the east coast.

[]RK[Mensrea]

Yeah, Sundays are okay timing wise, if we get started before 7pm server time; one thought is that MANY guilds on both sides do Sunday runs on MC. The potential for us to run into an opposition group might be kinda high. Sunday about 4 server time would be ideal I think.

[missuspuf]

Enale healing Nylock next time? Might make sense.

[missuspuf]

i have a fiery core taking up space in the bank, i believe this is the other blue-drop ya'll are refering to......i am open to suggestions as to how to use/sell this item for the betterment of the guild(s)....

mpuf

[Khanzal]

i have a fiery core taking up space in the bank, i believe this is the other blue-drop ya'll are refering to......i am open to suggestions as to how to use/sell this item for the betterment of the guild(s)....
mpuf

Well, you got that during the first raid so my take is do what you want to with it - we hadn't established any way of handling those kinds of items yet. If you want to reclaim the bank space and are willing to give it to the guild, I believe the guild has it's own bag man named "beancounter." (Jaral, is that still a viable char?)

In the future though, we should maybe think about having guild stores of those items (one store for each guild present). We may also want to consider guild designates who will get those items split evenly between the guilds present.

Fiery Cores are one of the reagents in several of the Dark Iron armor pieces. Dark Iron armor (if you get enough pieces) offers some pretty substantial fire resistance and would be idea for our main tanking people (Nylock and Eightbal) especially as we work our way further into the instance. (Note: there are also Dark Iron mail sets available with fire-resistance.) The only problem with Dark Iron armor is that it has few other stats except fire resistance. In otherwords, a whole suit of the stuff wouldn't be as beneficial over all as picking some select pieces and running with those plus some standard defensive tanking gear (high stamina and defense bonuses).

That's my two cents, anyway.

/end rambling post

[Creeper]

FOR THE HOR ... errr.. ALLIANCE!!! :D

Good job guys.. that first run is always an exciting one.

SO, a few notes from my guild, which farms MC like crazy. As for backup tanking.. if you have adequate healing, you don't need it. Or just having 40 players, as the increase in DPS will decrease the total healing needed, since mobs will die a lot faster. Therefore, I'd spend more effort on attendance than on back-up tanking strategies. BUT.. when we do back-up tank (on a couple of bosses) .. the backups just leave their 1h and sheild on at all times. Ya, the dps will be lower, but warriors aren't really a DPS class anyway.

As for druids.. ya, MoTW is great, the occasional battle-rez is great (30 minute cooldown though), but in our raids, faerie fire is strictly forbidden. It uses a debuff slot, and adds agro to a healer, which already has plenty. And thorns are ok, but most mobs have a pretty high Nature Resistance, so the thorns don't do as much damage as in other instances. The real strength of druids in MC is their good HoT healing.. gives the priests enough time to cast larger heals. A renew from a pries, and regrowth and rejuv from a druid can stack to close to 700 health/tick, without a lot of casting time used.

Get more players, and you'll go much further. :p

(oh. . and one other thing about lava cores/fiery cores: we have always used them to craft Fire-resistan gear. http://www.thottbot.com/?f=a&source=8&quality=4 is a list of crafted, epic items, and the majority of them have good FR too, and all the FR stuff requires lava cores, fiery cores, and core leathers. So ya, you could sell it, and for a good amount of cash, but saving and using it will be more beneficial. We decked out our MTs first, then rogues were next I believe.)

Good luck again, and still die dirty horde scum!! :rockon:

[Mayhemon]

Healing, unlike tanking and DPS, is two fold. We had 3 priests and 4 shamans (3 shamans?). This is barely enough to keep two tanks up. Our main problem was attendance. While our healing was fine on the main tanks, as our DPS group started to get hit by AoE or random secondary targetting, healing was diverted to group members and off of the main tank. Also, silence killed many of our healers. As one healer dispelled another, that took 1/3 of our healers off of healing. Our healing strategies were spot on, there just wasn't enough healers. DPS was lacking as well. With 2 tanks and 6 healers, 17 people are not gong to present enough DPS to move quickly through MC. When we got to the respawn spot, our slow movement caught up to us.

Back-up tanks: While not overly important, a third place and fourth place should be given. You can change weapons in combat. A third or fourth place warrior should have the maximum DPS available to them. When one of the two tanks goes down, the third place warrior should switch weapons/stances and begin aggro building while ALL DPS STOPS ON THE MOB. That was something we did not do. When aggro is lost, DPS must cease immediately. As for mistakes, we made very, VERY little of them, other than going with 25 people. I'd consider the run a success.

Mordas, Delda, Logannus, Corpserot, and myself are the healers (59+) in our guild. We are all together online on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays.

Raynur, Abicuss, Eightball are never online at the same time. Raynur is our highest equipped warrior and is only on weekdays.

Overall guild: Thursdays seem to be our highest population day, followed by saturday and friday nights. On Sunday evenings, only 1-2 or our healers would be available, but all 3 warriors might be for a total of near 18 guild members. On Thursday evenings we've seen 21 online at the same time. Weekdays poses a problem for west-east time zones, however.

My suggestion: Dump MC for Zul'Gurub. MC loot only comes from bosses, really. Two or so set pieces will drop off each boss and you will have 5-6 people competing for it. That drop won't happen again for 7 days (the lock-out). Zul'Gurub is 20 people, 3 day lock out, and we have a better shot of running it at times of convenience. Once we're ZG'd out, 25-30 people will be able to take down the first 2-3 bosses in MC. I wouldn't mind going back, but honestly, even if we get to Geh (third boss), most MC runs will be nothing but repair bills for 30+ people.

[Khanzal]

When one of the two tanks goes down, the third place warrior should switch weapons/stances and begin aggro building while ALL DPS STOPS ON THE MOB. That was something we did not do. When aggro is lost, DPS must cease immediately.

Thank you! I have said this before - when a mob becomes "unaggroed" (when a tank dies) they bounce like a ping-pong ball around the group with the poor secondary tank running after them trying to establish aggro. Critical hits, heavy damage strikes in general and healing will all put you on the mob's aggro list while the poor tank is trying to get on the list in the first place. Stop hitting it until it's good and mad at me, then you can shoot it again. Taunt is not an aggro tool, it is an attention tool. Once taunt wears off (a couple seconds), the mob will go after the person at the top of the list, and if I don't have at least a couple sunders on it, the person at the top of the list probably isn't me yet.


As for mistakes, we made very, VERY little of them, other than going with 25 people. I'd consider the run a success.

I agree: there was no time in MC I can think of where I thought we did something blatantly stupid or even that I would consider a mistake under the circumstances (first time through, who knew how to take out a Core Hound? No one. Now we have better ideas about how to tackle them).


My suggestion: Dump MC for Zul'Gurub. MC loot only comes from bosses, really. Two or so set pieces will drop off each boss and you will have 5-6 people competing for it. That drop won't happen again for 7 days (the lock-out). Zul'Gurub is 20 people, 3 day lock out, and we have a better shot of running it at times of convenience. Once we're ZG'd out, 25-30 people will be able to take down the first 2-3 bosses in MC. I wouldn't mind going back, but honestly, even if we get to Geh (third boss), most MC runs will be nothing but repair bills for 30+ people.

Good idea. Smaller instance, less people needed, comparable loot ... sounds good. I wouldn't mind hitting MC again sometime. Perhaps as more guilds join our guild alliance here, we'll have more options people-wise.

And don't mind Creeper, he's our resident Ally Forum Troll. Heehee.

<3 Creeper! ;)

[Ghost_of_War]

If you want to reclaim the bank space and are willing to give it to the guild, I believe the guild has it's own bag man named "beancounter." (Jaral, is that still a viable char?)

Beancounter is still up and running but I don't check him more than once every 2 weeks or so. (Sometimes not even that often.) I would suggest when items are sent to him that you send me an email letting me know to check. I will take inventory of his stuff and post it here in the forums so we can discuss the useage of the items as is best for the guild. Bean has many lower level pieces of green and blue gear in the bank already... as well as a plethora of bags for whoever can use them.

[Bysanche]

About the fiery core (Mpuf):

I am a 300 enchanter and Honored with Thorium Brotherhood. More or less, I have given up the idea that I may get Revered and get the +22 intellect to weapon enchant. That is unless there is a big push from the guild to gather fiery core/lava core/core leather/blood of the mountain. So yeah, if you guys decide that the formula is worth it then I'll do my best to get it...but if we start doing ZG instead of MC it might not be feasible.

Just an idea.

[]RK[Eightball]

I will have to agree with dropping MC and concentrating on ZG for now. However, we should still try to hammer out a battle plan as far as times, loot, back up tanks, and healing strats. Hopefully we will be ready to make another attempt in the comming months.

As far as loot, My suggestion would be to split the reagents between 1 member from each guild, and the guilds can decide to destribute it as they see fit, be it AH it and split the gold, or more viably, keep it in a "guild bank" for the use of making gear for the guild members. Also, we should start a fund for Repair bots, they will prove to be invaluble after Nylock and I have our armor go red.

On a side note, how do you link warrior stances to a hot key?

[Khanzal]

RK[Eightball']
On a side note, how do you link warrior stances to a hot key?

There are probably several ways to do this. Here's how I did it:

You have several hotkey bars. The normal one is one, you can click the little up / down arrows to move through them. I went to bar two and dragged my battle, defensive and berserker stances from my skills book to the hot bar into slots one, two and three. Then I went to the user interface menu. I believe it's under key mappings. I'll have to tell you in-game where the key settings are, but one of those is something like "secondary action bar" or something like that. You can click the button where the key setting is to reset it, then click the key or keys you want to hit to activate that action bar item. I set secondary action bar items 1-3 to shift q, shift w, and shift e respectively since my fingers are on those keys anyway.

One thing I have noticed with my current set up is that sometimes stance-dancing based on those keys interferes briefly with my movements (more of a PVP thing than a PVE concern). I may reassign those keys at some point.

Send me a tell in-game if you need more details about the UI hotkey settings.

[]RK[Eightball]

Thank you, was unaware that you could drag the icons into the hotkey bars.